Trait's of a fighter

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leam hall
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Morality and Fighting

Postby leam hall » Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:08 am

Hmm...I'd have to agree that "right" in the moral sense of the rightness of combat and the warrior ethic is probably broader than my note implied. Zack mentions not fighting in anger or vanity; good advice and a start on defining right.

I once knew a martial arts instructor who led a fairly good class. He would fly to the US to compete in tournaments and did pretty well. I never wondered about how he could afford that until after he class was disbanded. The instructor had been killed while he and some friends were robbing a bank.

Without going into morality of ARMA, I think the issue is fairly simple. If you commit your life to "right" and your swordsmanship is a part of that then you're better off than people who learn to fight to bully or violate others.

Discussion of the details of how we define "right" is good amoungst friends but best done after an enthusiastic training session. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Re: Trait's of a fighter

Postby JeffGentry » Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:24 am

Hey Szabolcs

One needs all the daring one can collect, for if you do those with hesitation, you will be killed.


I do agree with you here, In Ringeck he talk's about defeating a Master by aggression which i think he is realy talking about daring to atttack a Master and keep attacking.


There is alot of overlap in all these trait's, I think the more we discuss them the more open we become to other way's of thinking which is impotant to us learning new technique's or how to employ principal's.


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Re: Morality and Fighting

Postby Zach Palfreyman » Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:17 pm

Leam, here is a Doebringer quote you might like. He says "I wish to offer you three pieces of advice so that you fight in the right way". This is where he says to not fight in anger, or vanity, or use swordsmanship to bring unjustice to your fellow man.

"Chivalrous and without misdeeds and without complaints and courageously free, he is a true fighter."

And I don't think he says this is simply just a good way to lead your life, but good advice to win a sword fight. I doubt so many great swordsman would stress what seems like a "moral" side, if to them it hadn't been an important part of swordfighting. Saying that such things are of no real concern is no different then dismissing any other of their advice, thus the burden would be on you to prove otherwise.

So I think you bring up a pretty good point Leam about fighting the "right" way. Even modern-day self defense teachers will stress the importance of what you do before a fight, like paying attention, not getting hot-headed, avoiding confrontation when possible, running if need be, etc. I think it is possible to discuss it a bit too. To say not attack in anger is not the same as saying that you must be christian to swordfight. These "morals" of swordfighting might have an ethical side, but it is not purely religious.

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Re: Morality and Fighting

Postby Stacy Clifford » Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:30 pm

Swetnam actually has a whole section on the tongue as a weapon - having the prudence not to get yourself in trouble, or the wit to talk your way out of it without fighting.

Master. Now my loving scholler I have alreadie described the rules of sixe weapons, which I promised to instruct thee in, but yet I have stumbled by chance upon another weapon, which is as necessarie as anie of the rest; nay more, for without thou be perfect in the skill of this weapon, all the rest will rather bee hurtfull unto thee then do thee good.

Scholler. I praie you, what weapon is that?

Master. Marrie it is faire tongue.

Scholler. Why doe you call the tongue a weapon?

Master. Because at manie times, and for manie purposes, it is the fittest weapon, and the most surest for a mans owne defence, for the tongue at sometimes runneth so at randome, that for want of a bridle like a yong colt overthroweth the rider, although it be but a little thing and seldome seene, yet it is often heard to the utter confusion of manie a man, for the tongue is such a weapon without it bee governed, it will cut worse the anie sword; a nettle is a bad weed in a garden, but the tongue will sting worse then a nettle, and pricke deeper then a thorne, likewise manie men are taken by the tongues as birds are taken by the feete, therefore a faire tongue or a tongue governed well, will better keep and defend thy bodie from prison, if thou at anie tine be committed by the Magistrates when thy Sword will hinder thee if thou trust unto thy manhood.

Scholler. If I fight with no other weapon, but with a faire tongue, the world will condemne mee, and terme me for a coward.

Maister. A faire tongue is more necessarie for a valorous man, then a good weapon for a coward, for thou shalt heare: for with a faire tongue thou maiest passe through watch and ward, if thou do chance to travell in the night by occasion, and thou bee late from thy lodging, at such a time this is a principall weapon, and shall more prevaile then thy Sword, or any other weapon whatsoever.

Againe, a faire tongue is an excellent weapon, if thou hap in drunken company, and there fall to quarrelling; in such a case, if thou draw thy weapon, if it were as if a man should quench a great fire with a bundle of flaxe, for at such a time, and in such a company, if a man draw his weapon, he may soone be killed as kill, for drunkards and madde men are all alike during time of the drinke.

Also a faire tongue is a principall weapon to carry with thee, if thou chance to travell into anie strange countrey: for if an iniurie be offered in a place where thou are not acquainted or unknowne, thou maiest be oppressed with more then one, for birds of a feather will holde together; and many will hold on the bigger side, for where the hedge is lowest, the beast will soonest get over, but in such a case be well armed with patience for thy Buckler. and a faire tongue for thy Sword, and thy hand readie on thy hatte to doe reverence to everie vassall, although thou be a Gentleman, for the richest man that is, and the strongest man that ever was, did, and must pocket up an injurie in his owne Countrey, much more it is lesse disgrace to thee to put up an iniurie in a strange place, if an occasion be offered, the rather bestirre thy selfe with a faire tongue, then with thy sword; for in such a case thy sword will availe thee nothing at all.

Scholer. All this while with this weapon you have not taught me how I should defend my point.

Maister. Now I will tell thee, with a faire tongue, thou mayest save thy money many times, by promising much, and performing little, especially where little is deserved, for those which deserve little. a faire promise will passe, in a manner, as currant as thy money: I have known many Musitions many times paid with faire words: and now that it commeth into my minde I will tell thee a tale (as I have heard it reported:) How King Dyonisius rewarded a crew of Musitions which came to him with excellent Musicke, and after the Musicke was ended, come againe to me to morrow said the King, and I will give you a thousand talents; the which promise founded to a sweete and pleasant tune in the Musitions eares: But in the morning they came, expecting the Kings reward, according to his promise: But the King looked strangely upon them, and asked them what they would have, And it like your Highnesse, said one of the chiefest of them, we are come for your gracious reward which you promised us. What was that, said the King? A thousand talents said the Fidler. Why said the king, Is not that out of thy head yet? thy Musicke is quite out of mine, thou pleasedst my eares with thy musick for the present,&amp; I likewise filled thy eares with a pleasant sound of so much money: to our matter againe.

A faire tongue, and kinde behavior winneth favor, both with God and men, whereas those which can not governe their tongues are seldome at quiet; but always punished or vexed with the Law, and troubles in the Lawe consume much money, which with discretion might be kept by governement of the tongue.

Now by the hieway, if a carelesse roister in his own name require thee to stand, and by vertue of his owne warrant doth require thy purse; in such a danger, and in such a case betake thy selfe to thy weapon, rather then trust to thy tongue: for to speake faire unto some in such a case will availe thee nothing at all, but yet for all that, a faire tongue is a precious balme to beare about thee although it bee not sufficient to heale wounds, yet it may be a preservative to keepe thee without hurts: all the comfort thou canst have of thy dearest friends is but little else then bodily sustenance, nay of thy kind and loving wife which is or should be thy greatest comfort in life under God, if she I say do all that ever shee can to pleasure thee, yet thou maist hap to find in this booke, if thou reade it over, one lesson or other which may stead thee, or do thee more pleasure then all thy other friends: for here are many things written by me, that peradventure thou maist seeke after a greate while, and yet not fine them else-where, and so farewell.
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Re: Morality and Fighting

Postby JeanryChandler » Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:21 pm

the tongue at sometimes runneth so at randome, that for want of a bridle like a yong colt overthroweth the rider, although it be but a little thing and seldome seene, yet it is often heard to the utter confusion of manie a man


That idea of the tongue running amok conjures up some rather hilarious images in my mind... it's also strangely reminiscent of a speech given to me by an old con when I was paying a fortunately brief visit to Orleans Parish Prison many years ago.

One thing that rings true about the "warrior mindset", that I have noticed in my life, is this whole idea of minding your own business, thereby limiting unecessary entanglements and ensuring that conflict won't happen without suitible justification.

You can see this in the sort of verbal dance people go through before a fight, each trying to assign blame to the other guy.

It's one thing I have noticed in my life. When I started having my first white collar jobs, I often found in the corporate world there was this whole different concept of a pecking order. In a world so removed from the potential violence of the street, lets say, people seem to feel at liberty to behave in a rather amazing manner. Living in the suburbs for a while I noticed this kind of attitude was endemic. People would cross your boundaries quite cavalierly based on some assumed social assignement of rank, on the principle that if you were lower in the heirarchy of a business or somehow a social inferior, they could say anything they wanted to and be as abusive as they liked. The suggestion that they may be putting themselves in personal danger by so doing is invariably met with shock and outraged surprise.

I have moved back to the inner city and these days I limit my close personal association with people who I would definately consider "warrior" types, folks who have been through a lot in life and don't knuckle under to any kind of aggression. Some ext cops, a lot of current and former military, people who have lived on the fringes, and led hard lives. Some of these guys are dangerous people, in that, if you cross them, you will only get one or maybe two warnings before something bad happens. And they don't care who you are or what your reason is.

On the other hand, I find that these people respect boundaries in a way that I can understand, and I personally never have trouble, to the contrary, I'm treated with respect in their company. In fact, unlike when among normal folks, I feel extremely at ease, I know I can trust these guys from long experience. I can't say the same for "ordinary" people.

Jeanry
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Shane Smith
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Re: Trait's of a fighter

Postby Shane Smith » Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:56 pm

Fortitude and tenacity.
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Re: Morality and Fighting

Postby M Wallgren » Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:11 am

In old swedish there is a proverb saying:

Tunga är ofta mans bane = Thoung is often a mans bane
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Shane Smith
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Re: Morality and Fighting

Postby Shane Smith » Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:15 pm

Please define "thoung" for those of us not in the know <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />
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Re: Morality and Fighting

Postby JeffGentry » Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:54 pm

Hey Shane

I "thoung" you would be able to figure it out.

lol

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Re: Morality and Fighting

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:07 pm

"Thoung" = My good friend Martin's stressed spelling of "tongue". <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Re: Morality and Fighting

Postby Shane Smith » Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:02 pm

Thanks <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />
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Re: Morality and Fighting

Postby JeffGentry » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:29 pm

I figured he mis spelled "thought".

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Re: Morality and Fighting

Postby Shane Smith » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:02 pm

Now you see why I was confused <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
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jeremy pace
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Re: Trait's of a fighter

Postby jeremy pace » Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:10 pm

....... i think this is a hard one. I've read all the posts on here and see merit with them all. Perhaps finding all of these in oneself is the key to mastery of the sword.
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Re: Trait's of a fighter

Postby Jake_Norwood » Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:07 pm

You bring up an interesting point, Jeremy.

Mastery of the sword? Assuming there even is such a thing (I wager there's not, really), is that different from being a "fighter?" Or not?

I know people who are fighters--real, honest-to-God killers. Guys with body counts from wars, insurgencies, and so forth. Clearly, they know nothing of the sword...most of them would fare poorly in sparring or anything having to do with swords...yet these men have traits of a "fighter." Certainly more than most modern day students of swordsmanship.

So we've got a few things here in the mix.

Fighters.

Swordsmen.

Honest-to-God Fighting Swordsmen.

While the third category is functionally extict, I think that's the group we're trying to emulate. That being said, do we really want to?

I would propose that many of the suggestions on this board really refer to the second group. Of these things certain elements step forward, such as "Practice, Practice, Practice."

Others, such as the will to close or the will to kill, belong to the first and third groups. Is this something that we aspire to now? Is a modern practicioner less if he isn't truly trying to ramp himself up to killing. Even practicing with intent is different from practicing with intent to eventually kill or maim. Most of us train hard, with intent, as if we would have to "fight for our lives," but the reality is that there are few things we want less than a life and death duel at the end of the month.

Just some thoughts, trying to keep us from wandering into some kind of proto-mysticism about what we are and are not really trying to do as modern "swordsmen."

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