Proper Sword Cuts

[JeanryChandler]

Interesting discussion guys

As far as cutting through the guards, I believe in it. I personally feel it is key to maintaning momentum and keeping the initiative. Also, alber is not necessarily vulnerable... if I end up in that position my first thought is to watch my opponent and see if he has made any 'predictions' as to what I am going to do next or plans as to what he will do. I like this guard just like the tail guard. You can strike around doublehau into another oberhau (you can see an excellent example of Jake doing this in his prize playing videos somewhere in this site) you can come up to Tag or to Ochs quickly as a displacement / unterhau attack, and you can lure them into making all kinds of mistakes.

Sure some guards are better in some positions than others, but the key is to practice to attack and defend from any guard so that you wont be vulnerable in any guard. If you can move quickly into a couple of different options from a guard that is less expected, or that superficially seems weak, you can often win right there.

To me, it's like some of the false edge cuts. At first they seem counter intuitive, but when you practice at full speed, full contact, they are much more effective because potentially so much faster and cleaner in certain situations.

As far as this theory Martin and others have about interpreting Doebringer, while I agree with the idea of the tighter cuts and simpler lines, as for a much heavier emphasis on thrusting, I dont really buy it yet for blossfechten. Two of the guys in our group who fight longsword with us had primary training with rapiers and have an excellent thrust. A powerful, explosive thrust is an excellent tool in fencing and one has to know when to use it. The cut however is absolutely necessary and can IMHO defeat a strategy too focused on the thrust, just as it can defeast an opponent to bent on closing to half-sword.

Jeanry

[JeffGentry]

Hey Szabolcs

I think you are onto something, This type of thing does happen, one person improving on another's translation.

I had interpreted his interpretation as meaning that we move through the gaurd's as we strike, i do not think that idea is wrong, it is my choice what gaurd i stop in.

I also agree with Doebringer and his saying to "...keep your point an ell from your enemy's breast or face", the best way to do this is using the gaurd's at the bind mainly the hanging point upper and lower hanging by binding and winding which Meyer adress's in his section on the gaurd's when he talk's about the hanging point "since you'll need to be in the correct hanging point during the work...", if you are attacking you can cut, thrust, or slice, depending on the feeling, or when your strike miss's what option's do you have to attack again.

Doebringr also address's this in his text on pg 37r of Lindholme's translation "These are the two hanging's from one hand towared's the ground. In all situation's you should strike, thrust, gaurd, soft or hard. Do the talking window, stand joyfully and study the opponent's intention's. Strike so that he tries to step away from you, I say honestly that no one defend's without danger. If you have understood this, then he will not come to blow's. If it happen's that you are on the sword, then you should also do strike's, thrust, or cut's and remember to feel and not move away from the sword without reason. A masterful technique is done rightly/correctly on the sword."

I think this agree's with Meyer's hanging "gaurd" and also a big part of this is Am Schwert, which is a difficult task because a cut at arm's length feel's so very safe, and being on the sword is so diffcult to learn.


Jeff

[Joachim Nilsson]

Jeanry wrote:

As far as this theory Martin and others have about interpreting Doebringer, while I agree with the idea of the tighter cuts and simpler lines, as for a much heavier emphasis on thrusting, I dont really buy it yet for blossfechten. Two of the guys in our group who fight longsword with us had primary training with rapiers and have an excellent thrust. A powerful, explosive thrust is an excellent tool in fencing and one has to know when to use it. The cut however is absolutely necessary and can IMHO defeat a strategy too focused on the thrust, just as it can defeast an opponent to bent on closing to half-sword.

IMO a "heavier emphasis on thrusting" is in opposition to the fencers who solely relies on cuts. Without putting words into Martin's mouth, I believe he is referring to a more dedicated use of the Drei Wunder -as opposed to just cutting. The key is, just as you say, to know when to properly employ the cut, the thrust and the slice. But trust me when I say that if you mix them up thoroughly and use them all in your fencing (the Drei Wunder that is) you will become one terrifying opponant.

[JeanryChandler]

In that case, I agree. Thank you for clarifying that. An explosive thrust to the face or chest, a beatufully timed slice to the neck or the inside of the arm, a vicious cut across the head or the wrist... these are the the things victory is made of <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jeanry

[Joachim Nilsson]

<img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

One can perhaps summarize the Drei Wunder as: Only thrust and you die, only cut and you die, only slice and you die. Do them all and you might live. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[KatherineJohnson]

Hi Szabolcs,

Unfortunettly I am not well versed by any means in German. if you have a differant translation though I would certainly be interested in reading it. You might be onto something but my scholarship is lacking compared to my fighting so my opinion is irrellevant on subjects such as these.

I do find that explaining cuts as passing through various guards helps my study group members grasp the motions of various cuts.

[Mike Chidester]

I find it to be the best way to teach people proper extension in their cuts--cutting from Vom Tag through Long Point to Wechsel, for example, to do a proper Zornhau.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Here's a bit about this which has been missed though. I alluded to it in my last post in a round bout way. The "cuts" are much more than just cuts though. A proper Zornhau is more than just extending your arms in the cut. It's about how you move toward the opponent. How close the opponent is, how aggressive they are, how close they are etc...that's what I mean by the "art" you cannot take one portion of the overall tactical situation and say-"this is why this failed"

You have to look at the totality of the situation and put it in context. If I tell you to execute that cut and always extend the cut, while moving forward and to your right, when you are within range and do it striking the person not the sword, and make sure to turn your blade so the edge impacts and not the flat, then etc..... the rest of that stuff makes up the art, and in it's totality becomes what is so important.

[M Wallgren]

Exact!

Thanx Jocke!

M

[Joachim Nilsson]

Martin wrote:

Exact!

Thanx Jocke!

You know I've always got your back. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[M Wallgren]

Wonder if it is a good thing to have you there <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> ! ah forgot that you got no dishonest bones in yer!!

[Matt_Bruskotter]

I bit late for this, but Doebringer was the reference I wanted to bring in to refute the Meyer way of explaining how to cut. I couldn't remember.

The reason for bringing this question up is that some sword arts cut in a very specific way and I was getting confused as to how we do it. I agree more with doebringer. When I cut, I go to Von Tag down to a Plough. That way I remain in a hanging and my thrust is there. Unless my target is a leg, I never cut into an Alber.

To help me cut into a Plough, I swing my sword like a golf club. My shoulders move first, then my elbows, then my wrists. It creates a snapping motion thus creating great tip speed and it snaps into a Plough stance or a similiar middle guard. Not that my swing is that exaggerated. I feel it is done correctly when it looks like one fluid motion. Any golfers know what I am talking about? Golfing is about tip-speed as well and they mostly move slowly until just before contact with the ball to create a snapping motion for high tip speed.

I think this is what Doebring is describing. I think Meyer was trying to simplify it for beginners.

What do you guys think?

[GaryGrzybek]

I'm no Golfer so I can't compare the actions here. What does help in an affective cut is pushing out from the hilt as you bring the sword through it's arc. A quick tip slash works on specific targets but may not break his guard or power through heavy targets.

[Lance Chan]

I would like to add that if one tip slash by adding wrist power almost at the moment of impact, it's very likely one would expose his grip until the moment of impact and that would be ideal target for counter cut. Plus, staying slow before the moment of adding wrist power would telegraphing the move too.

So I think I'd agree with GaryG here that, when I swing my sword's tip out first. In mechanic, I let the tip go first by wrist powering the sword forward, pushing with my forehand and pulling with my backhand, then let my arm loose and let the sword follows its arc. This way, the terminal velocity was achieved at the very early stage of the arc and remained fast till I stop the cut.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I also agree with gary, and it was something I thought about when I read Matt's post. I am currently in a SPEAR Instructor school with SPEAR's Founder Tony Blauer.

It's awesome stuff for Police and Military close combat/counter ambush training. I am learning how the system uses the bodies own natural instincts, (ie-startle flinch) are developed and used to own's advantage in a fight.

When Tony talks about delivering blows he recommends thinking about always moving the hands first then folwing with the body. It reminded me of some of the things the Masters advise about covering one's body with the sword etc...it also seems to mirror some of John's teachings. I started to visualize always moving my hands first and I think it really helps to quicken the blows and not telegraph movement- Aaron Pynenberg