Albion’s Talhoffer sword

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GaryGrzybek
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Re: Albion’s Talhoffer sword

Postby GaryGrzybek » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:19 pm

That's funny John because I had the Talhoffer on order but had to cancel due to financial issues. This is a blade type that's missing in my collection so one day I will place it on order again. I've gained your exact impressions on most of the Albions I've handled. They feel more like originals then many others out there. I was lucky enough before my budget crash to purchase the Svante Sword. It's an amazing weapon in every way and ranks the top of my list. Thanks for the review, I'll be looking forward to some videos <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
Gary

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Joachim Nilsson
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Re: Albion’s Talhoffer sword

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:51 pm

Excellent, John. I absolutely love my Talhoffer and your review echo a lot of the thoughts and feelings I have concerning this particular sword. Teaming up with PJ was a very smart business move of Albion.

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Craig Peters
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Re: Albion’s Talhoffer sword

Postby Craig Peters » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:57 pm

John,

If you have not already done so, I am sure that Albion would appreciate it if you sent this in as a special testimonial of the Talhoffer.

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Derek Wassom
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Re: Albion’s Talhoffer sword

Postby Derek Wassom » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:20 pm

I received my Talhoffer several days ago, and I'm having a hard time putting it down. Excellent sword.
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Re: Albion’s Talhoffer sword

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:30 am

Told you you'd like it. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
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John_Clements
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Albion’s Talhoffer sword

Postby John_Clements » Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:53 pm

I've been working out the last two days with a new Albion Swords piece I acquired, the “Talhoffer” (honoring the early 15th century Fechtmeister Hans Talhoffer) from their “Next Generation line” of weapons. It’s offered as one of their limited edition makes intended as accurate replica blades for serious practitioners.

I’ve handled several Albion pieces the last 3 years and played with a few. I’ve yet to be anything other than greatly impressed. Getting to finally put one through an extended strenuous workout was a pleasure.

It’s rare that immediately upon handling a reproduction piece you feel good about it and, like an antique specimen, instantly want to wield it with enthusiasm. As I often say: accurate historical weapons encourage accurate historical technique, and accurate historical techniques call for a historically accurate weapon. So far with this piece I feel confident it meets the test.

When I get a new sword, I suppose like many people, I heft it, swing it, go through postures to get a feel for it, slowly florysh with it, make strikes and displacements, and then do high energy practice routines with it. I’ll use it with increasing force on a pell, as well as test targets if it’s sharp. If blunt, I’ll try out moves with increasing energy against a partner using another suitable blade. But I first want to see how it “speaks”, that is, what intuitively the weapon seems to suggest about how it should best be used given what actions it evidently was designed for.

Essentially, I want to see how it handles from what I know to do and what I have come to expect from real swords. I also smack it around a bit first, not to determine how well it’s made but just if it feels like it will hold up to basic moves (I've had all sorts of swords fail on me while using them solo at empty air—blades have snapped at the tang or flown out of the hilt, blades have bent at the ricasso or handle, hilts have fallen apart, pommels twisted off, grips cracked, etc., so I’ve learned to be skeptical). I also want to know how generally stiff or flexible it is, but I don’t need to know how much it will flex. From all this I evaluate how a sword performs. With this Albion piece my process was no exception.

So, saying that a blade “held up” is a minimum expectation uncommonly met in my experience. Saying that it actually encouraged and inspired my workout surpasses expectation. Such was the case with this Talhoffer style, I am happy to write.

This tapered Albion model is not especially long at 46” but such a length was ideal for piercing thick cloth armor, or facing reinforced maile and plate in close combat, and would be vicious in thrusting against unarmored opponents. Against plate armor one would not be cutting heavy blows so much as engaging the other weapon or half-swording it to get that deadly point or the hilt into play while preventing the opponent from doing much the same. The length and weight of this weapon is perfectly suited for such 14th &amp; 15th century fighting techniques. Yet, I have no doubts it could take off an arm or cut to the bone of an unprotected limb with an appropriate edge blow.

The piece feels particularly light yet is robust and acutely pointed, the blade is comfortably stiff but not rigid, and happily, like all the Albion pieces I have so far handled, its hilt is wondrously solid. A fighting sword is really only as good as its hilt, after all, and here the grip and fittings are tight and quite well matched to the blade, not crammed on as an aesthetic after thought. Swedish swordsmith Peter Johnsson’s astute influences as Albion’s master designer are perhaps self-evident in the weapon, I feel.

The center of gravity of the piece is just right and along with the hilt and edge would be its finest attribute. It’s a sweet stabber, but to a degree it’s also a fairly decent cutter too. The edge on this piece was especially nice. For not being fully sharpened it was rightly hard and very well honed, and not excessively thick. My strikes easily shaved wood off from a pell post, cleaved 3” pine saplings, and its point repeatedly pierced a solid rubber wall target with no effort. (The feel of it was so solid and well balanced. I even was tempted to hurl it like a spear and give a good throw at an outdoor test target. This style of sword is certainly capable of just such a historical technique).

This style sword is not my ideal of a perfect length or heft for a longsword, but it’s certainly one well suited to its martial role and a good complement to my arsenal of training weapons. The one aspect of the model I am uncertain of, is that while the blade is nicely resilient, it seemed a bit too flexible, more in the last fifth of its length at the point (I was able to flex it by just pressure of my thumb and index finger). Although I imagine there may certainly have very well been historical specimens designed like this, I have seen others of this style that where stiffer.

Ironically, the biggest complement I think you can pay a good replica like this is that it makes you want to have it in a fully sharpened version for test cutting, in the same way when you have it sharp it makes you really long for a completely blunted version for partnered practice.

I personally “use” my swords; I need them for my research and my practice so I need to have them sturdy and well-made and as historically accurate as production limitations and economics will permit. I test them out to a standard I believe is above the average sword aficionado and that of many other serious practitioners. When you purchase a sword that is ostensibly accurate or real, and one that is a substantial investment, you not only expect good value---though you will never employ it as a tool for dealing death or injury---but as a serious student of the Art, you want to know: “How will this piece help me?”, “What might I learn through practice with it?”, “How will it aid my training?” With a fine model like this one I can say the answers will come easily.

Evaluating a sword is a subjective matter, as you have to have some basis by which to decide if you like it or not and whether it’s something that you should in fact like or not. There is a feedback that occurs between producers and users, and both makers and consumers of replica swords today need to communicate and educate one another. Fortunately, in Albion Swords I think we have a company that sincerely seems to understand and appreciate this historic dynamic. Weapons like this one are clearly intended for serious students of historical fencing.

The biggest question I feel one can ever really ask with any sword is, “Would I trust to defend my life with it in real combat?” The answer in this case for me is a firm “Yes.”

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Gotta run,

JC

p.s.
I’ll be posting for fun a few vids here soon of putting the Talhoffer through its paces in my fencing studio.
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Matt Bryant
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Re: Albion’s Talhoffer sword

Postby Matt Bryant » Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:53 pm

Man, now I am really buring to get one for myself! Unfortunately swords don't come easy on a college budget. But, hey! I figure you don't really need to buy food as long as you have a sword... You can use it to hunt for sustenence (If only). But for now I must be content (or as content as I can manage) with my purchase of the Meastro Line Liechtenauer blunt.

I definately echo Craig's sentiment that you ought to send in a customer testimonial and let them know what they are doing right and what they could possibly do better.
Matt Bryant
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Re: Albion’s Talhoffer sword

Postby John_Clements » Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:47 pm

Some better pics and more info to follow.

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Re: Albion’s Talhoffer sword

Postby John_Clements » Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:55 pm

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Re: Albion’s Talhoffer sword

Postby John_Clements » Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:57 pm

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Re: Albion’s Talhoffer sword

Postby John_Clements » Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:59 pm

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Derek Gulas
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Re: Albion’s Talhoffer sword

Postby Derek Gulas » Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:07 am

Neat... You can see the blade twist when the moment it strikes if you watch frame by frame....
Close combat - bringing us together.

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Matt Easton
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Re: Albion’s Talhoffer sword

Postby Matt Easton » Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:37 am

I had a play with the Talhoffer recently, as one of my students has one - It really is awesome. A very nice longsword.
Albion just seem to get it right every time (no doubt thanks to Peter in part).

Matt

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Re: Albion’s Talhoffer - follow on blade warping

Postby John_Clements » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:09 am

Funny you should observe that, Derek. I managed to put a warp in my Albion Talhoffer sword during testing. After striking the 2.5-inch sapling several times with different portions along the weapon and at different levels of force (causing it to cut half-way through or 3/4 through and then break the rest off) another full-force cut made the blade bend off line exactly 1/4 of an inch, nine inches down from the point, right where the blade is very narrow. Though we continued afterwards to make several more successful cuts with it, the of which was already posted above. More videos of all this are below.

There will be damage that occurs to any tool from normal usage over time, damage that is not the result of “abuse” or of weakness in the weapon. While I feel this model could be stiffer, I believe this was the case here. Certainly no historical sword was indestructible or impervious to damage. Such slender tapering blades just do not respond well when striking edge-on against hard rigid targets, after all. They were not designed to hack at armored thighs or the tops of armored helms, for example.

We’re actually not even entirely sure if the warping here occurred during the cut we believe it did or was possibly exacerbated by it after a lesser bend was perhaps caused from previously hitting with the flat at 3/4 power against a pell a few times (all instances which we have on video). The target itself was no thicker or harder in my opinion than a human upper arm or thigh bone. But, despite the bend being somewhat subtle, my friend noticed it immediately after one of the first few test cuts I made and right then I had also detected something weird in how it suddenly felt. Either way, I don’t think this is a ruinous bend. This sword is very good and well worth the price, I think, even if not quite 100% equivalent to the historical model yet---not that anyone today can with complete confidence say any replica truly is.

To put this in perspective: There are always going to be a few unknowns when it comes to evaluating swords today because none of us have really had the opportunity to truly test out actual historical specimens to the extent where we have realistically cut or stabbed full force at realistic targets. So, we in fact don’t really know how a modern reproduction of a particular historical blade design should respond or hold up to certain actions that might ruin the weapon, such as warp or break its blade, crack or fold its edge, or bend or snap its point. We must wonder then, how much do modern sword makers have to extrapolate their designs when knowledge of original models is lacking? What we must be careful of then is making assumptions about the durability of swords (or application of their fighting techniques) without any hard evidence. Yet, we do have to try to determine what attributes these tools would have once had and what we should reasonably expect them capable of now.

To use an analogy, a modern military may design, test, and then issue to its troops a new firearm. That weapon may then prove successful as a killing tool on the battlefield (thereby showing itself superior or inferior to already existing firearms). But in the process some specimens may jam or misfire or worse during combat. Assuming no fundamental design flaw or manufacturing defect at work, and no unusual abuse, such occurrences are to be anticipated during the weapon’s expected lifetime and should not be attributed to an effective fighting tool being labeled “mediocre.” As tools, all swords are perishable and have a limited service life.

I talked with Albion and they were appreciative of the feedback and suspected that its possible the heat-treatment and or design of the last quarter &amp; point might need to be adjusted. You really have to admire their attitude. They have none of that “Don’t try to use a historical sword in that historical manner” nonsense you hear from inferior manufactures trying to “stand by their product.”.

Our next test of thrusting full-force at some plate armor will be postponed now until we get a replacement.

JC

cut failure &amp; warp
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follow up
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Re: Albion’s Talhoffer - follow on blade warping

Postby John_Clements » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:27 am

More close ups of the saplings

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