Termnology: Passing Through

[JeanryChandler]

What is the German term for "passing through", when you step in toward your opponent and then strike as you move past...?

Jr

[Byron Doyle]

The German term for passing through is 'durchlaufen', literally 'running through'.

[philippewillaume]

As far as can tell, I am not sure there is not term for what you describe.
durch laufen implies grappling and not striking.

Durch is really the idea of getting across, ie getting the opposite way to which the blow/pressure is coming so it does not really cover the meaning of the English skimming by or skinning through

What you mean (if I got you right) is covered by some pieces and even more if you do not mind if there is contact with the opponent blade.

But well we are on the opinions realms here.

[Byron Doyle]

I've always thought of durchlaufen as a movement and not so much as a specific technique involving a strike. To me, durchlaufen is just that: running through the other person's strike, to make an opening. As I see it, what you do from there is a decision of situation. In using durchlaufen, one gets inside his opponent's guard. Why would you want to take it to grappling when you could just as easily (easier even) do a quick draw cut to the body? I suppose there are reasons that I'm not thinking of, but of course the goal would to be to kill the opponent as quickly and efficently as possible. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[philippewillaume]

because the manual does not say so <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

You do not do ducrhlauffen when he strikes, you do it when he try to grapple/ (move you sword up and close in)
genarlly speaking Ringeck never changes side unless the opponents give it (ie over shoot, press too hard or block parry. I.E give a strong latteral impulse.)

all that being said, it is really a matter of opinion/interpretation.

[Byron Doyle]

I see what you're saying. I suppose I see it my way generally because I use it against oberhaus of the zorn and scheitel variety (for which it works quite nicely). Like if they start cutting a zornhau, why stifle with a hengen if you can get in there fast enough to just get past his weak and throw a schnit into his body as you go by. And of course if you can't get the cut in then you are in a perfect position to go to ringen am schwert. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[JeanryChandler]

Actually, stifling with a hengen is kind of what I was thinking of. What do you call it when you close from a bind, hengen or otherwise, and actually pass through 'close range' and pass on by, with or without a cut? (I seem to always cut)

Jr

[Byron Doyle]

Oh, I see. That would be durchlaufen. What I was saying was basically the same thing, except that the movement is a void forward past your opponent's cut – the only contact made with the opponent is the cut that one would make while passing through, like you said.

[philippewillaume]

As far as I can tell there is no name for that, but there is name for every variation of what you could do out of that
So if you do what Byron does this is a second narchrayssen
If you do it at the sword you can call it a changing through (provided that you trust or strike him.
But it could be wind as well or an aussernennehen , a streichen through or duplien
There is a fair amount of technique that goes under and across the sword of you opponent

From what I understood, the way you want to describe just does not fit the manuals, they are not interested in how you move the are interested in what you do to kill him (the movement is implied, Ie to make the technique/principle happen you will have to move in certain way).

I think I took your question and Byron answer may be too literally.
Strictly speaking there is no official medieval German fencing term to describe that.
So you could use durch (tretten/spingen/gehen) but you might as well use the English since it does not refers to anything in the manual.
Or
As bayron suggest you could say you move in the way of duchlauffen (or any other technique that use the same movement) and by extension say it is durchlauffen.
(but you would probably get my initial reaction. Ie durchlauffen is not a way to move and it is a way to react when wrestling is forced upon you.)

this is the text
(42 r) Von durchlauffen.
Durchlauff! lauß hangen mitt dem knopffe; gryff, wilt du rangen. Wer gegen dir störcke: durchlauff damitt mörcke.
Glosa.
Mörck, das ist: wann ainer dem andern einlauffe, fört er dann vff mitt den armen vnd will oben mitt störck überdringen, so far och vff mitt den armen vnd halt din schwert mitt der lincken hand by dem knopff ober dinem haupt; vnd lauß die clingen hinden über deinen ruck hangen. Vnd lauff mitt dinem haupt durch under sinem rechten arm, vnd spring mitt dem rechten fu°ß hinder sinen rechten. Vnd mitt dem sprünge far im mitt dem (42 v) rechten arm vornen wol vm den lyb, vnd fasse in also vff dem rechten hüffe, vnd wirff in für dich.

From duchlaufen (the passing through)
Durchlauff (Pass through), let hang with the pommel, grab whish you to wrestle. Who against you forces: durchlauff (pass through) therewith note.
Note: that is when one run at the other, raise he/drive he of/onto with the arm and will fall onto/overpower (überdringen) you above with strength. So drive of/onto with your arms and hold you sword above the head by the pommel in the left hand; and let the blade hang behind over your back. And pass with your head through across his right arm and jump with your right foot behind his right. And with the jump/drive your right arm in front well against the body and take him on your right haunch/hips (huffe=hufte). And throw him on front of you

Aber ain durchlauffen.
Item, wann er dich in dem einlauffen mitt dem schwert oben mitt störck über dringen will, so halt dein schwert mitt der lincken hannd by dem knopff vnd lauß die clingen über deinen ruck hangen; vnd lauff mitt dem haupt durch vnder sinem rechten arm, vnd blib mitt dem rechten fu°ß vor sinem rechten, vnd far mitt dem rechten arme hinden wol im vmb den lyb, vnd fasß in vff din rechte hüff, vnd wirff in hinder dich

Another running through
Item, when one want to fall onto/overpower (überdringen) you above with strength, so hold the sword by the head with the left hand and let the blade hang down your back: pass through with the head under his right arm, an linger with you right foot in front of his right, and drive with the right arm at him well behind around the body (lyb=leib). And take him on your right hips and throw him behind you.

Phil

[Bill Welch]

Phillip wrote "If you do it at the sword you can call it a changing through (provided that you trust or strike him."

I dont find any reference to having to strike, of thrust at him to begin a passing thru, some of the techniques from Ringeck(Meyer, Goliath, Dobringer, or Danzig for that matter) say to pass thru from the bind, but no all of them.

It is like many tech from the manuals, Durchlaffen is a type of tech, not a spacific tech.

I have started to think that so many examples in the books are just that, examples of what you can do NOT THE ONLY WAY you can do certain tech. As a matter of fact in several places tha authors say just that. <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[JeffGentry]

Hey Bill

I have started to think that so many examples in the books are just that, examples of what you can do NOT THE ONLY WAY you can do certain tech. As a matter of fact in several places tha authors say just that.

I tend to agree with that, I think alot of the Master's are using certain technique's to illustrate a principal, i don't think there is one way to do "change through", some do say "you can do this in this situation" and it is only an example of one technique in a specific situation and does not necessarily apply to all situation's, the principal behind it though can be used in many way's and many situation's.

Jeff

[philippewillaume]

Yes that what I was trying to get.
I think that the pieces are techniques but technique that illustrated the principle the best (well as far as the author is concerned).
And that lead us to see what that principle is slightly differently according to our taste and research method but we cannot generalize too much.

For exemple using bill comments
You cannot find any refence to strike to the durchlauffen because there isn&amp;#8217;t any. What I was talking about was that you call the movement of getting on the other side of the sword plenty of different name because the concept covered in (ringeck, VD, lew and speyer) do not focus on movement but what you to hit your opponent.
The movement is a consequence to that as most of the time there is different way to move to achieve a given technique no to mention concept that over ride each other.

All that being said there is still a constant that cannot change.
In the case of the durch lauffen proper (in Ringeck VD, Lew and Speyer) has to include, running at each other him pressing hight, dropping the right hand from the sword and us passing under and across his arms (and not his sword) .

So you cannot say you are doing durchlauffen is one of those elements is missing.

If you are going across the sword, it is closer to the idea of changing through than passing through. (In fact this is what changing through is all about passing the point across the sword of your opponent what you with your body is not mentioned)

Voiding the cut and counter cutting, is much closer to the ideas of nacrhreysen.(well that really covered by the second narchraisen

They can be done with the way of moving described in this thread.

[Byron Doyle]

Basically when I call it durchlaufen, it is just that, durchlaufen. As was noted I was being more literal because it is a mighty convinient term for describing these things we are discussing. In a more proper sense, the way that the various fechtbücher describe durchlaufen, also as stated, can vary greatly. I've come to think of durchlaufen as more of a functional term than something specific, and I speak German, so naturally I am going to use durchlaufen to decribe the running through – a convention that seems to be the trend in naming techniques for the masters. I think the big thing here is not so much understanding what durchlaufen is, but understanding what durchlaufen does: no matter how you swing it, in the fechtbücher it's all about getting inside your opponent's guard to do something, be it ringen am schwert, ringen, some cut, or something completely different (I would imagine if for some odd reason all you had was a dagger and you were up against a longsword it could be useful... or maybe you would just get yourself killed <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ).