Future of Western Martial Arts

[Justin Lompado]

Aaron,

You're right that historical martial arts aren't sports, and that it might be more qualified for an Olympic position than halfpipe snowboarding, but I am against making medieval and rennaisance swordsmanship an Olympic event just yet. Doing so implies a need for quantification and sportification, both to make it easier for the judges and for the viewers to understand. Then again we must ask who is qualified to judge, and who would fill the positions. Millions of people around the world could be getting the wrong impression of just what historical swordsmanship is. In that respect, we have a long way to go before we are able to put togehter a quantified system that would also preserve as much historical integrity as possible, because, as this forum evidences, we still question the meaning of our primary sources and are still very much "finding out" and doing new things, as opposed to being able to make our own and quantified historically accurate rendition of historical swordsmanship. Overall then I am glad to say that Olympic sportification, which if not done very carefully and right could be a death blow to historical swordsmanship, is still a ways off.

[Will Adamson]

I had to resurrect this thread because it seems the local guys I posted about before are going a bit overboard. The woman with the furry sheild (somebody please tell me where there is reference to fur lined sheilds) is the one who talked me into trying one of their classes (she was also excited about getting a Starfire sword). Schedule constraints kept me from checking them out. I'm kind of glad I didn't now, of course it would have been good for a laugh.

www.emaaknights.com

I may be being unfair, but I always think of bullwhip displays as being stage show, not fighting. Thoughts? Of course I love seeing the bullwhip stuff of Hack & Slash at Renn Fests. Sometimes they don't even try to hide the cheating, it just adds to the fun! Those two are the best clown fighters there are!

[david welch]

LOL...

I think we still look forward to seeing you here in Knoxville anyway...

[Jake_Norwood]

Egad...someone needs to say it, so it'll be me.

Those are renn-fairies of the worst kind. I actually think I met some of those people through my sister, who used to be the costume director for the TN Renn Fest. Starfires are the gold standard of cheap Renn-faire edge-bashing stage klopfechter.

Run...run...RUUUUUNNNNNN!

This is NOT western martial arts. This is...bad...unholy, like an inverted grail or something...ack!

Jake

(...but I'm sure that they're all very nice people...)

[John_Clements]

I know of no historical evidence for whips being used in combat. Seems they would be obsolete against the slightest armor, not to mention vulnerable at mediium and close ranges to everything else.

Also, "Starfires" are not swords. They are sword-like objects.

[Jonathan Scott]

"Future knights learn combat skills derived from historical sources, archeological research, and an understanding of human anatomy and movement. This dynamic curriculum makes EMAA instructors pioneers of the European Martial Arts industry and our academy the first of its kind in the United States."
"first of its kind?" And.."future knights?"..umm...wow. <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Guess this is what you get when you let reinactment get in the way of the study of historical fencing. I'd be interested on how poorly they'd do fighting some ARMA people. I'd give good money to see that thrashing <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Will Adamson]

If you notice the group picture on the homepage, the guy on the left in black is holding an axe. I've seen him fight with it. He pretty much just punches and thrusts with it. I'm sure I wouldn't want him to swing it at me if I were fighting him for safety reasons, but why use it in steel demos if you aren't going to be able to get the least bit close to how it would have really been used?

I took a look at one of their swords the time that I saw them (a Starfire). It looked almost serrated with all the small nicks on the edge. I didn't know much about proper parrying at the time so I didn't know what to look for while they were doing a steel demo, but from what I remeber of that sword, it was probably a good bit of edge parrying. Now much of it could have been accidental, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Part of me wants to see them again to better access their approach. But part of me doesn't because I may get the giggles and look like an ass.

They really are extremely nice folks! At least their approach is better than SCA since they don't do any kneeling down fighting and such.

BTW, when I asked how their approach differed from ARMA's, she said, "From what I know of ARMA, they just focus on the fighting." I think what she meant was that ARMA doesn't necessarily emphasize the chilvaric virtues every five minutes. Although that may have been what Aaron was doing in those Mexico pics! <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Aaron Pynenberg]

no, No, I was talking with those ladies about historical sources on half-swording and the relationship between Fiore and German sources of defense..........at least that's what I told my Wife, though now I think she's a little suspicious-

[Matthew_Anderson]

Seriously Will, I know you're desperate for training partners out there, but hanging with a group like that is probably worse than not training at all. You're always welcome here in Virginia Beach, and I know when you move and are closer to the Knoxville group, you'll be in good hands. And stop posting that link, it's like a car crash, I can't resist looking at it, but it turns my stomach. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Gene Tausk]

Will - Matt and Shane are being modest here, so I will fill in the gap. I don't know how far away you are from the Virginia Beach group, but if you are at all within a reasonable driving distance (5 hours or less), and do not take the opportunity to train with them at least some of the time, you are doing yourself a great disservice. It is a better investment of time for you to go train with Matt and Shane once a month and practice what they teach on your own than go with what seems to be a glorified LARP group. Any group that says they are training "knights" sends "Danger Will Robinson!" signals in all directions.

Besides, it may take you a month to recover from training with the two of them! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you get into bad habits it will take some time (not to mention pain) to get out of them. Better to start the right way.


--------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[JeffGentry]

That Fur covered shield kill's me, I just do not get it.

Why do people insist on this crap when there is so much more out there.

Jeff

[Allen Johnson]

Will,
I am in Columbia, SC. I'm not sure where exactly Mebane is but perhaps we can try to get some of the SC/NC folk together once a month or something. I have been with out a training partner since moving from Utah in October and need to get working again too.

[Will Adamson]

I'M NOT TRAINING WITH THOSE YAHOOS...ALL RIGHT!!!

I did go out to train with the VA Beach group a couple of weeks ago, but I'm not sure I will be able to get over there again before we move. The wife is eight and a half months pregnant, so priorities have shifted. Matt made a few points that he probably didn't realize were going to be so important to me, but that I had actually been doing wrong and was able to fix. Not least of which was the position of the dominant hand in the hanging guard/parry.

It appears that those of us in the Carolinas are pretty spread out from the Outer Banks, to me in the Piedmont, down to the SC guys in Greenville and Columbia I think. A get together would be great, but a lot of travel. I'm not sure, but I think Matt is the most senior, and I'm the most central geographically.

This is a great idea, so maybe we should explore it on the Elist.

Oh, and I had dinner with some friends of ours. He used to do kickboxing, wing chun, and kung fu. I told him about ARMA and he seemed very intrigued so I sent him a link to the website. He's in Raleigh, so not near anyone else just like me.

[s_taillebois]

That Fur covered shield kill's me, I just do not get it.

Why do people insist on this crap when there is so much more out there.

Jeff

M. Gentry,
People will insist on such miswended nonsense, because it is easier than applying the effort to learn more about the art. In that way, they can take on some of the attributes, without the vexing work required to be credible.
For example, many on this forum, have worked for several years to attain the functional aspects of Gothic/Renn/Baroque sword arts. Be that in group studies or as solitaries, it is a serious study in order to get it right. In that regard, ARMA, would be involved in the pragmatic aspects of study for this art.
Concerning their (the people with the large axes and fur covered shields) contention that they are learning 'knightly conduct' , that's a ambiguous condition. Normally, I'd not be averse to any conduct which improves personal morality, however such as knightly codes implied much more than swinging a steel blade around. And obviously, the social mnemonics of that condition and period, largely no longer exist within contemporary contexts. For most of the period, the condition of 'knight' was closely tied to the religious and social norms of the period. So, I doubt the organization in question is doing such things as; several days and nights isolated in places such as "St. Patrick's Purgatory', spending 3 nights prior to elevation fasting and praying before one's hilt, or in chapel, learning the rules for when to wear a penitent's shift after certain battles or fights, the very complex rules for social interaction under a fuedal bond, or even having to learn both chansons de geste or chansons de toile. So whether one attained it by inheritance or by merit, if done with serious intent, the status of 'knight' carried a whole range of knowledge and obligations beyond the simple use of a weapon.
And anyway, to get to enraptured about 'knight' is questionable ground. That class did do some appalling wrongs, sometimes in spite of their code, or because of it.