Flail practice??

[JeffreyHendricks]

Does anybody fight with flails? I made one where the ball is leather for practice. Is it allowed in group arma fights ( im not sure if there's wepon regulations..im going to check.)
anyways, it kinda fun....im not following any techniques or anything....but you want a shortsword or dagger or sheild for your other hand..just in case your opponent get too close or tangles your "chain" around their sword (my chain is an old sinew bowstring)


your opinions??
jeffrey

[Josh Welsh]

Sounds fun! You may want to try making a padded sparring one from one of those heavy nerf balls, and rope. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Dang, now I have to try that.....

[JeffreyHendricks]

<img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> hey! thats a great idea.....

You may want to try making a padded sparring one from one of those heavy nerf balls, and rope.

[Doug Marnick]

"im not following any techniques or anything"

IMO, if you are not following historical combat techniques, sparring is a waste of time. I don't know much about flail techniques myself but I humbly advise doing some research if that weapon interests you. There's a difference between sparring and playing.

I did find this informative post by Casper Bradak which you may find helpful:

"To the best of my knowledge, flails never weighed much more than a roughly similarly sized sword, even less, the balance is just opposite, like a mace or axe. Also, the notion of long chains on them is mostly a modern one. Originals ofen had a hand length chain, or even just a joint. A long chain loses power and control.
Since it is far better for offense than defense, it's best used either long hafted, or with a shield or plate armour.
Some of the best guards with a single hand flail, in my experience, are nebenhut, vom tag, and sometimes the low front positions, like alber, boars tooth, etc. I've heard some say you need to keep them moving, but that's bs in my experience and allows your opponent to easily time you.
Being an impact weapon, if your opponent fights defensively, aggressively pound him into the dust. Use round strikes, redel, and zucken. Don't forget to use your shield to attack as well.
flails, as much as swords, require practice with ACCURATE replicas to KNOW how they really handled, what will/won't work, and what they will do. Keep common sense in the equation.
ARMA SFS
Leader, salt lake/ogden area SG, Ut. U.S.
http://www.arma-ogden.org/ "

Secondly, I question the recommendation of a nerf ball for the business end. I am a believer in safety first but accuracy a close second. Padded weapons should be constructed with the martial artists' safety in mind, but they should still have enough impact to deter getting hit. I know I have no crafting ability (you should see me wrap presents!) but I would suggest something with a little more impact. The first thing that comes to mind to demonstrate my line of thinking, although I know it's not the best option, would be a lacrosse ball.

Good luck with your flail constuction and learning the proper techniques to make your ARMA endeavors successful.

[Josh Welsh]

I would be interested in historical data on flails, but wouldn't know where to start! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

A lacrosse ball may work, or something like a softball wil a nerf shell?

[david welch]

Doug Marnick said:

IMO, if you are not following historical combat techniques, sparring is a waste of time. I don't know much about flail techniques myself but I humbly advise doing some research if that weapon interests you. There's a difference between sparring and playing.

I don't know about that. Doebringer said:

15R
...Note and know also that it is not possible to explain the art of fencing as well with words as one can show it with the hand. Therefore open your mind and ponder well and the more you train yourself in play the more you will think of it in earnest. For practice is better than art, your exercise does well without the art, but the art is not much good without the exercise...

So even if you are not following some technique, it is better to just practice fighting, than not fight because you don't have a technique from a fight book. You make a lot of discoveries just sparring.

[JeffreyHendricks]

Some of the best guards with a single hand flail, in my experience, are nebenhut, vom tag, and sometimes the low front positions, like alber, boars tooth, etc. I've heard some say you need to keep them moving, but that's bs in my experience and allows your opponent to easily time you.
Being an impact weapon, if your opponent fights defensively, aggressively pound him into the dust. Use round strikes, redel, and zucken. Don't forget to use your shield to attack as well.
flails, as much as swords, require practice with ACCURATE replicas to KNOW how they really handled, what will/won't work, and what they will do. Keep common sense in the equation.

Sorry....i under stood very little of the above ( the terms)....

Secondly, I question the recommendation of a nerf ball for the business end. I am a believer in safety first but accuracy a close second. Padded weapons should be constructed with the martial artists' safety in mind, but they should still have enough impact to deter getting hit. I know I have no crafting ability (you should see me wrap presents!) but I would suggest something with a little more impact. The first thing that comes to mind to demonstrate my line of thinking, although I know it's not the best option, would be a lacrosse ball.

I agree there... the leather one i made has what you might call "spikes" and it has a little sting....especially below the belt.

"im not following any techniques or anything"
IMO, if you are not following historical combat techniques, sparring is a waste of time. I don't know much about flail techniques myself but I humbly advise doing some research if that weapon interests you. There's a difference between sparring and playing.

youre prabably right in that, but if anything it builds up hand-eye coordination and reflexes Etc.

[jeremy pace]

And i agree on that. Any martial sparring can be conducive to learning. Sport fencing does not teach real martial prowess but it does teach timing, distance, footwork, and the will to engage. You can read your books all day long but wont get anything out of them unless you use them in combat. So what if you start the combat part first? I think all the above mentioned things are great suggestions but I am wary of this mindset of "you can learn nothing without manuals to back it up. Sparring is useless without." I think this has something of the elitist.... Man, go out and learn the flail and come teach me what youve figured out. Then we will put it to the test. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
Besides, i know plenty who "play fight" and i dont think the manuals do much to change it. If they have that goal of being a scholar and learning is whats important. Again look at sport fencers. How did we change so much? We "evolved" into a form of playfighting while the masters were still alive and screaming about it.

[JeffreyHendricks]

i agree jeremy

[jennifer welch]

I will have to second this Doebringer quote, that's how I learn, through practice even if I didn't get all of the stuff that was in the book.

[Doug Marnick]

To clarify,
I do believe that actually doing something is better than just reading about it. My first week of real teaching was more important to me than all of my education courses combined.
re: the original post, I was more concerned with the idea that someone might dismiss the techniques as unimportant and end up playing sword tag.
Although one can learn much from just sparring, it could also lead to the development of bad habits without a foundation of knowledge from which to build. Therefore, one might as well have a grasp of the concepts to see how they apply in mock combat so the sparring time becomes more of a learning experience and yet retains that fun element.
I guess it depends on a person's individual learning preference. Some prefer to read the instructions before playing a video game, others just pop it in and start pushing buttons.
I would conclude by saying if sparring first and reading second is anyone's method, go for it, as long as it leads to a conducive result.

[JeffreyHendricks]

right on there....i agree the techniques are important ( they make winning easier...imo)

[JeanryChandler]

I really like the flail. I reccomend using the plastic garden chain instead of a rope, it's much more realistic.

But, on wieght, this is a problematic area. We have used flails of different types for about 20 years. They are always a problem, because if made even anywhwere in the ball-park of realistic weight (over 1 lb?) they cause the most complaints and injuries by far. These things HURT.

INcidentally one of the most common types actually used you rarely see ever portrayed on TV or in any fantasy genre, is a staff weapon with a single link and another length of (about 1') of staff. Similar to the threshing tools depicted here:


Fair warning though, I've seen even light flails knock people out in Lacrosse helmets and fencing masks...

Jr