Arabian fencing

[Guest]

Hello,
european culture owes to the Arabs more than just the numbers, there has been a continous circular feedback among our culture and theirs. Does anyone know of any written work on the subject of arabian fencing and it's influence on european fencing? Influence on swordmaking can't of course be negated, because we copied kilji, karabela and shamshir (the second being our best bet I think). But, did we learn how to use those weapons by ourselves?

[steve hick]

Carlo,
I don't know of any books on the subject, although there is some minimal text on the subject in some of Nicolle's works and an article that Ada de Bruhn Hoffmeyer did in Gladius on the subject. Nothing too detailed. There is a work on Canarian stick which discusses relationships with the North Africa (Egyptian) art of Tathib. If you find something post it please.

There is an ongoing thread on this subject over on Swordforum. You might locate Mancoucher over there, who is a Persian really, almost single handedly pushing the muslim arts.

Steve

[Jared L. Cass]

Carlo, have you seen the "Furusiyya Sword Practice" thread located on page nine of this forum (Open Reasearch)? It's about testcutting on mounds of clay, but it is kind of Arabian orentated.

Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin

[steve hick]

Someone did a dissertation on a Turkish manuals, in which they translate the material.

Title: A FOURTEENTH-CENTURY MAMLUK-KIPCHAK MILITARY TREATISE:
"MUNYATU'L-GUZAT" (TURKIC, CHIVALRIC ARTS, SARACENIC)
Author(s): OZTOPCU, KURTULUS
Degree: PH.D.
Year: 1986
Pages: 00503
Institution: UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, LOS ANGELES; 0031
Source: DAI, 47, no. 10A, (1986): 3767
Abstract: This is a study and edition of Munyatu'l-(')Guzat 'wish of the
warriors of the Faith,' a fourteenth century Mamluk-Kipchak trea- tise on
various aspects of furusiyya 'chivalric arts,' such as horse- manship, lance
maneuvers, sword, archery and polo. It consists of a detailed linguistic and
content analysis of the text, a transcription in modified Latin characters,
an English translation, a complete glossary, an English index, an appendix
of the technical terms used in the text, and the facsimile of the text.

Munyatu'l-(')Guzat, one of a group of manuscripts called the Mamluk-Kipchak
proper, represents the literary lanaguage of the Kipchak Turks, a part of
the military elite that ruled the Mamluk Kingdom of Egypt and Syria between
the 13-15 centuries.

The study of this manuscript furthers our understanding of the
Mamluk-Kipchak language in particular, provides linguistic material for the
Middle Turkic period, and expands our knowledge of the history of medieval
military skills and practices in the Islamic world.

[Guest]

You're better informed than CIA <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
I'm curious about what might have gone lost in the european sabre fencing that was once present in shimitar fencing among the arabs. one can rightly point out that 700' and 800' sabre fencing are not the best products of european fencing in general, I guess we made a bad copy of a style that could be complex and effective indeed. If you look at a karabela or shimitar from above, you see that the blade forms a longer line than does a stright blade, this longer line might have been used, for instance, for counter draw cuts of which there's no evidence in the sabre manuals I've seen, and european sabres soon got strightened. In european sabre fencing on foot, a stright blade is an advantage because it helps thrusting and does not imply that instant of time, that there is between the movement of the arm and the impact of the blade, implied by a curved sword, istant that can be useful to the one who has to parry your slash. For this reasons I think the Arabs might have known better than us how to use curved swords.

[steve hick]

Apparently there was saber fencing in Italy from quite early, there is a section in Marcelli on the use of the scimitar like sciabola, and it is opined that this might date from the time of the Turks taking over Hungary (word derivation). Drop a line to Matt Easton, I am just repeating him (I think its actually some one else who is the original poster on this).
There are also sections in Narvaez on the rapier vs the scimitar.
Steve