WMA vs. Western Weight Training.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"so where are the masters telling us to go out and put huge rocks on our backs and do all the heavy lifting we can....no, I see time and again discussions on moving with earnest energy and using your sword for exercise, fencing with double weight weapons etc..."

There are some pictures in period manuals of people lifting rocks and doing balance exercises. I think Silver makes fun of rapier guys who train with weighted shoes. I certainly agree with you that fast twitch stuff with the sword (get to know your pell) and footwork are very good things and are spoken of.

What I am not sure about is the presence of absence of the equivalent of today what we would today consider "weight lifting" by period fighters. The absence of the "year 1400 guide to lifting rocks and logs" does not neccissarily mean it wasn't done. Look at how much is "assumed" by the manual writers in fencing as so basic they don't bother to describe it. Then today we have to cipher out the missing material. That said, it would be far more persuasive if a lifting advocate would show some period evidence for it being used in training.

So, to the weight lifting advocates out there, can you provide some examples of historical fencing training including such activity? Since the internet doesn't convey emotion well, this is meant in a polite and respectful way.
<img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Will Adamson]

Don't y'all think that just day to day living in a time without electricity and air conditioning would be enough of a workout that Joe Blow Middle Ages would be in much better shape than Joe Blow Information Age? (Aside from the spot of plague that he picked up yesterday.) If their average condition is better, I would venture to guess that would mean that the masters would feel they could just jump right in to technique and fighting principles, unless a particular student had spent a bit too much time getting waited on in the castle anthrax. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

My father always used to say that there is no better workout than manual labor. Of course, we were building a cement block house at the time.

I think there is plenty of evidence of "tests of strength" like many of the events in Highland games, but I doubt that there would have been a very methodical training regimen as we think of it. Having said that, I think the Greeks did have some sophisticated training regimens for Olympians, but many of their assumptions aren't exactly what they thought they were. (I'm only working from classroom recollections but I can see if I can come up with better info.)

Bottom line: we have to 'train' more now for similar results because we don't get the inherent exercise in daily life (at least most of us.) So why would there need to be much in the way of general exercise discussion in FIGHTING manuals? Any exercise writing would have been about how to get more specific into the particular way of fighting, and that general fitness is achieved through vigorous living.

I think Ringneck has something to say about this, but I'm not that well versed in specific manuals. I'll try to take a look at it tomorrow to see if my points hold true enough.

Personally, my own training is not specific, irregular, and wholly ineffective. It mostly consists of eating sausage biscuits, drinking coffee and taking naps. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[david welch]

What I am not sure about is the presence of absence of the equivalent of today what we would today consider "weight lifting" by period fighters. The absence of the "year 1400 guide to lifting rocks and logs" does not neccissarily mean it wasn't done. Look at how much is "assumed" by the manual writers in fencing as so basic they don't bother to describe it. Then today we have to cipher out the missing material. That said, it would be far more persuasive if a lifting advocate would show some period evidence for it being used in training

How about this for a start... state of the art historic training guide:



Illustration from “De Arte Gymnastica,” c- 1577

And, from:
http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/IGH/IGH0306/IGH0306c.pdf

In the sixteenth century, Michel Montaigne, the famous French essayist, described his father as a man of great vigor, “of an upright and well proportioned stature,” who actively pursued fitness and strength through regular training. According to Montaigne, his father trained “with hollow staves. . . filled with lead which he was wont to use and exercise his arms withall, the better to enable himselfe to pitch the barre, to throw the sledge, to cast the pole, and to play at fence.” Montaigne reported that his father also did exercises wearing “shoes with leaden soles,” which he believed helped him leap, vault, and run more effectively.

and how weight lifting exercises were discussed in De Sanitate Tuenda. "In the second century AD., the Greek physician Galen published his thoughts on the therapeutic benefits of exercise in De Sanitate Tuenda, a medical text which remained influential into the nineteenth century."

German educator Joachim Camerarius’ Dialogues des Gymnastica, published in 1544, also contained references to weight training. 11 In the time of the first Queen Elizabeth, John Northbroke wrote a treatise against gambling and dancing that advised young men to “labor with poises of lead or other metal.”

[Jaron Bernstein]

Sounds like weight training to me.

[Will Adamson]

Looks like the puddin' to me! Talk about coming back with source materials to prove a point.

How common do you think this type of training was?

[Aaron Pynenberg]

ahh come on now, that guy is actually carrying two large bags of potato chips, yes that's it potato chips, and that thingy in his hand is not really a weight but a cup for drinking....yes thats it a cup.

so OK thats a pretty cool picture, not much to say against that source, I am curious though are there any others?

[david welch]

I am searching for some more from "our" period, and I hope to find a few more that specifically mention fencing like the one from Michel Montaigne did. But there is good evidence for it, and there is plenty of evidence from antiquity:

From Romana del Casale is a Late Roman Villa (or Palace), dating from the late 3rd and early 4th century AD... the "bikini girls":
See the girl on the left


The earliest one I know of is from a Pharo's tomb on a wall about sports and exercise:

[Stacy Clifford]

Don't forget that we have an entire article on this subject in the Essays section:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/fit/RennFit.htm

[david welch]

Don't forget that we have an entire article on this subject in the Essays section:

Absolutely. That article is what made me decide to look a little deeper into the whole history of weight training.

[jeremy pace]

And these pics are all great, but its not a question of "did they weight train?" so much as it is degree. In reading a Knight and his Weapons, by mr Oakeshotte himself, makes several points about the larger more "Goliath" type person being the exception not the rule. It is just common sense that people who fought for their lives wanted to be stronger or faster or able to endure more, but how many were able to lift twice their body weight over their heads? And look at modern standards as well. Wrestling is fake, sure, but no one can deny that artificial or not those guys are STRONG! But are they really more skilled? If you throw a real olympic class wrestler in there (big guys too) who will really come out on top in the clinch? When does strength of body become a disadvantage? I am not a small guy but my uncle is a 3rd degree bbelt (just saying he has some combat training not trying to pat on the back) and has arms the size of my waist. Seriously, the guy can bench over 500lb and make it look like nothing. But when we have sparred i rip him apart every time. I am 6'0 and 225 and pretty fit, and yes i weight train, but if i do too much my body just wants to get bigger and this slows me down. My uncle cant assume Vom Tag because his arms would suffocate him. Again it is about degree and i think this is excess.

[JeffGentry]

Gent's

this to me is a good indication of fitness.


Cardiovascular/respiratory endurance - The ability of body systems to gather, process, and deliver oxygen.

Stamina - the ability of body systems to process, deliver, store, and utilize energy

Strength - the ability of a muscular unit or combination of muscular units to apply force.

Flexibility - The ability to maximize the range of motion at a given joint.

Power - The ability of a muscular unit or combination of muscular units to apply maximum force in minimum time

Speed - The ability to minimize the time cycle of a repeated movement.

Coordination - The ability to combine several distinct movement patterns into a singular distinct movement.

Agility - The ability to minimize transition time from one movement pattern to another.

Balance - The ability to control the placement of the bodies center of gravity in relation to it’s support base.

Accuracy - The ability to control movement in a given direction or at a given intensity.

You are as fit as you are competent in each of these ten skills. A regimen develops fitness to the extent that it improves each of these.

Everythign in moderation.

Jeff

[TimSheetz]

Hi Guys,

Foot ball guy may have a lot of athleticism trianed into them giving them advantages over less conditioned athletes, but a well conditioned wrestler will more than likely have the "Balance" of athleticisim that better fits into what we do.

I do not like lifting weights... I prefer body weight excercises over lifting weights... but I also do lift weights to supplement.

Peace,

Tim Sheetz

[Will Adamson]

What about gymnasts and cheerleaders? (giggles abound)

Say what you will about the manliness of them, but they have to do some pretty impressive stuff. Especially the throwing teenage girls up in the air.

A cousin of mine was a male cheerleader at UGA, and a wrestler in high school. He has some serious upper body muscle, but also has very good range and flexibility there.

[Corey Roberts]

Personally, I think that the best answer to that question depends on what kind of person you are physically. Obviously, there is nothing better for improving skill in anything than practicing it. But some kind of excersize/strength training regime, can vastly enhance your already existant skills, and put you at your full potential. The exact variety of which is dependent on what kind of body type you have. There are essentialy three types of bodies. The Ectomorph, the Mesomorph and the Endomorph. The Ectomorph is the thin wiry skinny guy (Me) Endomorphs are the naturally bulkier heavier types, and Mesomorphs are the medium build sort. Generally Endomorphs have to work harder on tone than muscle buildiing as they are naturally bulkier, they must also work harder on Cardiopulminary type excersizes such as running etc. Ectomorphs like myself usually don't have to work on tone and cardio as much as Endomorphs but it is harder for Ectomorphs to build a great degree of muscle and so Ectomorphs have to work harder on muscle building excersizes. So really I think that question depends on a persons body type.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I would agree generally but also remember the key--it also depends on what activity you are looking to improve. This has been my point the whole time- the activity dictates what kind of "fitness"- you are looking for-AP