The 12 Rules

[Casper Bradak]

4. He who moves after the blows has no right to be proud of his art.
5. Remember the flat of the blade, do not fence left if you are right.
CASPERS INPUT: Sorry to push this along guys, my (almost) study group has been going over these for a while now, and I'm anxious to hear other ideas on them.
I think that #4 is clear, and closely related to #3. It's just poor form and mechanics to strike without moving, and much worse to strike and then move.
Or, is he referring to voiding your opponents blows?
My ideas on #5- When he says to remember the flat of the blade, I think he is saying to keep it in mind when parrying and displacing. Could he be perhaps referring to edge control issues as well?
When he says to not fence left if you are right, this reminds me of many other german fencing rules, such as where Ringeck advises to always make your first blow from the right if you are right handed, and don't they say that most of your strikes should be from the right?

[Mike Cartier]

Mikes INPUT:
# 4 (He who moves after the blows has no right to be proud of his art) this is perhaps the most interesting of the rules, and has lots of potential hidden meaning to it. We will definately play with this movement and timing mechanics more to feel this out.

#5 seems to me to make sense also, althought i personally don't feel much of a difference from doing a Krumphau or a Zornhau (left or right), I but i could see how there could be more power from your strong side, (i'm just not there yet)
This is a great thread, can't wait until we get to the techniques that come after the 12 rules.

[Tony_Indurante]

TONY'S input on #5: I think when he says to not fence left if you are right, I believe this is referencing you and your opponents sword position. If your sword is on the right, you are striking against your opponents left- where his sword is not (most people are right handed after all)- therefore he is not as well defended. I'm pretty sure this is a reverseable rule- if your sword is left don't strike right.

[John_Clements]

Number 5 can also have a dual meaning: to remember to strike on the flat of their sword when displacing.

JC

[TimSheetz]

TIM'S SOMMENT TO JOHN

John, as anpother possibility, I was thinking that the 'feet against each other' could refer more to the force of your legs rather than their proximity to each other.. if your legs are in a wider stance, your legs are pushing 'against each other' directionally.

Don't know if the word in the original language means 'contra' or is more of a preposition... showing the positional relationship.

Best,

[TimSheetz]

TIM'S INPUT:

Rule #4 I think could also refer to your movement or action against your opponents blow.. if you move after the blow you should not be proud... Doesn't he tell us later to remember In des? I think this is possibly related to that.

[Guest]

As to the position of the rear leg, How straight do you mthink it needs to be?

[Jake_Norwood]

How straight is a great question. My thinking is that it should be "stretched" out behind you, but obviously without locking the knee. I'm taking Karate right now at my University, and there's a stance (I forget the fancy Japanese name for it) that's pretty much identical to what you see in the manuals where the leg is really quite straight, and a variation that we just call "fighting stance" where the weight is slightly back more and so the back leg is a little more bent, but otherwise just as the "stretched leg" that we're talking about here.

[D. de Grenier]

Hi,

I think here it's the correct place to share my hypothesis considering the interpretation of the poem "Zwoelff leren" <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

I copy here a mail I made in a private discussion with HEMAC members in April so :

------
The poem is located between introduction and longsword section in the Egenolff book.

The poem is reproduced at the end of the following page :
http://ardamhe.free.fr/analyse/NS/12regles.htm

Its structure is 26 lines rhyming two by two at the end, cuted in 13 stanzas. The first one is a kind of introduction, the following twelve are numbered 1 to 12 and are the rules.

Le problem is, when reading and analysing the text, that for example:
- both stanzas 3 &amp; 4 deal about footwork and are hardly two distinct advices ;
- the two lines in stanza 5 seem to be two distinct advices. The first,
quite difficult to understand is about the flat of the blade. The second one is the general advice from Liechtenauer on right blows to be used by right-hander.

So, I decided to forget the original cutting and to make a new cut based on meaning and not on rhyme. The result is the poem translated both in english and in french on the same page, http://ardamhe.free.fr/analyse/NS/12regles.htm.

I find 12 rules too, but this cut make more sense for me and the poeme become more coherent with the various glosas on Liechtenauer we know.

I wonder if the original cutting (in Egenolff) would not be an artifact of the printer, transcribing and printing a poeme usually passed on orally.

[Casper Bradak]

6. Search for Schwech [&amp;#8220;weak&amp;#8221;] und Sterck [&amp;#8220;strong&amp;#8221;], remember this word In des.
CASPERS INPUT: So how about this one? I think there's a lot to the searching for schwech und stark. Fuehlen and winden, testing for hard and soft binds. Very important stuff in my opinion.
In des, because that's when all of this is done, in the middle of an engagement.
That's all I know.

[E. Perez]

ERNIE'S INPUT TO JOEL: I move laterally in order to, as you suggested, to take advantage of the terrain or light. Sometimes if an opponent is not use to doing this it can distract them. Generally I am in pflug when doing so, tho sometimes I may use alber. Regarding footwork, my trail foot usually comes up some naturally, but there is still some separation. When you move, be sure not to cross your legs. Anyway that is what I've found in my small bit of experience.

[John_Clements]

Thank you for your post and your efforts.

Yes, Clause &amp; Hans translated the 12 rules for us in 2000.

See you

JC

[Fabrice Cognot]

I think Didier's way to arrange each stanza helps clearing out things. As he said, there is more that just one general principle from the Liechtenauerian tradition in every entry of this poem. there are indeed 12 rules, but not 1 rule per line, if you see what I mean.
Didier's presentation about that poem last March in Dijon was explained sword in hand, and thus was clearer than what can be conveyed with written words - just like the masters of old said...

on shouldn't forget as well how this poem fits in the German tradition/evolution of the Art (both under a chronological and technical point of view) - and consider how these rules would apply to, say, Italian teachings of the same period for instance...

Fab

[John_Clements]

4. He who moves after the blows has no right to be proud of his art.

I interpret this to mean literraly that you must not swing your blow after the rest o fthe body (foot, hip, shoulder, arm, hand) have moved, but instead to whip them all out in coordination for maximum power. I don't think it is a warning against striking after, nachreissen.

It also interestingly relates to number 3, about moving together.

JC

[Shawn Cathcart]

SHAWN INPUT: This might also be a case where Fight high, and blows at length are meant to remain balanced with one another. As has been mentioned, if your length is to far, your height starts to get lower. This leaves your head and back open. The key here is to get as much length as possible using your body and arms and footwork, while still remaining upright and high so as not to leave yourself open. If you cannot reach a target moving like this, it might not be wise to reach for it as you will leave yourself open for falling cuts to your head or arms. I've encountered this during sparring. If you stay upright, and just use faster and more dynamic footwork you can close that distance, and still cut without being vunerable. So to summarize, reach, use your length of your body and arms, but not at the sacrifice of a high upright stance.