Language question

[JeffGentry]

Gent's

I have been pondering this for quit some time figured i would see if any one had some insite.

What is the relationship between the word Falchion, Messer and Dussack?



From Codex Wallerstein Pl 57 (Mid High German)

Item vischstu mit dem messer haut
er ober ein so versechcz mit deinem messer
aussen mit der flach auf den nagel und gee
pald furfarth mit dem tenckten fuss und vall im mit
dem knopf uber seinen armen als hie gemalt stet so
hausten in in den kopf

Im dussacken stannt der stant
Im alls 8 bar

then it goes to the 16th cent. script

Also, du kampfst mit jemandem mit dem messer...

Der stand im Dusack
8 Stande ohne rustung

Then in english

So you are fighting someone with the falchion...


The image of Falchion
8 images without the armour

The illustration of the Pl is what i would definately call a messer not a falchion or a dusack, Is there something i am missing in the language or translation?.

Jeff

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Jeff.

I'll take a shot, though I'm not Grzegorz, I am working with his translations right now, so I can shed some light.

When CW was published "Messer" and "Dussack" were not common terms, even in our niche field, but "Falchion," which is definitely a close relative, was a standard term found in art books, armor books, and even D&D books. So I think GZ translated "Dussack" and "Messer," which seem to have some degree of interchangeability (that's going to open a can of worms) as "Falchion" because he believed it was the closest English equivalent to those German terms...which is what translating is, after all.

Hope that helps,

Jake

[JeffGentry]

Hi Jeff.

I'll take a shot, though I'm not Grzegorz, I am working with his translations right now, so I can shed some light.

When CW was published "Messer" and "Dussack" were not common terms, even in our niche field, but "Falchion," which is definitely a close relative, was a standard term found in art books, armor books, and even D&D books. So I think GZ translated "Dussack" and "Messer," which seem to have some degree of interchangeability (that's going to open a can of worms) as "Falchion" because he believed it was the closest English equivalent to those German terms...which is what translating is, after all.

Hope that helps,

Jake

Well i wondered if there was a reason, He was using falchion.

As you can see though, in the original German at the bottom they used the term Dussaken when talking about the number of Plate's in the section, so the question remain's is there a definate relationship to dusack and messer?


I was hoping you would ring in on this Jake because i know you and Gregor are working on some thing's together, and you being a language guy have much more knowledge about how these thing's evovle than i do.

Jeff

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Jake,

I would argue that the dussack uses the same techniques as the messer. I even have in my research files messer and dussack plates that are almost identical in both the images and the descriptions of the plates. So as far as I am concerned, the idea that messer and dussack are interchangble is not a can of worms.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Jake_Norwood]

That messer techniques and dussack techniques are one and the same (with a few very, very minor tool-dependant differences if we're getting overly pure) is pretty well established, yes.

It appears that all references to "messers" in earlier books become references to "dussacks" in later books, including the same stance names, verses, etc.

Jake

[Allen Johnson]

While were on the subject ( if this is too much of a deperture we cen discuss it separately)...
for everyone that is doing language studies in manuals, what books or resources are you using to help you learn and translate say, 15th century German? Or 16th century Italian? I would assume that just picking up a modern english-german dictionary would be inadequate.

[Richard Strey]

Here is a link to a bunch of German-German dictionaries the I find quite useful. Essentially online versions of standard books every professional of the field (which I'm not) would have on his shelf. Take a look. From there, you can go on with your modern German-English translation.

[JeffGentry]

While were on the subject ( if this is too much of a deperture we cen discuss it separately)...
for everyone that is doing language studies in manuals, what books or resources are you using to help you learn and translate say, 15th century German? Or 16th century Italian? I would assume that just picking up a modern english-german dictionary would be inadequate.

My resource is Jake and Philippe Wallaum, I do not speak german or have any degree of knowledge of language, Usualy i see thing's translated diffrently or see what i consider to be an unusual usage of a word in a manual and go from there.

I am learning by osmosis.

I do use this on occasion though

http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=en&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&sectHdr=on&spellToler=on&search=vier+versetzen&relink=on


Jeff

[Richard Strey]

Heh. LEO is for languages what Google and Wikipedia are for everything else... not what you'd cite in a scientific paper, not always correct but damn useful.

[JeffGentry]

Heh. LEO is for languages what Google and Wikipedia are for everything else... not what you'd cite in a scientific paper, not always correct but damn useful.

It is better than my best guess, seeing as how i barely passed english.


Jeff

[philippewillaume]

that is what i uses
http://gaer27.uni-trier.de/MWV-online/MWV-online.html
in fins thw lexer the most helpfull.

and http://dict.leo.org/ looking for the translation of the word in english and in french so that i can have a better feel for the word.
as far as online dictionary leo is not that bad (and better that babell fish or the like)

and of course a late 1800 french greman medieval grammar, because that is the latest i have found..... (SIC.)

persoanlly i do not beleive that modern geram or even dialect can replace bzh and a mediavl grammar.