where to go with european martial arts

[Gene Tausk]

i must say to you all great points but they are ones i have thought on.
on the issue of herding cats i don't want them to be herded i want them to admit they are cats.
i want those involved to sit down and say i do wma here i am. whatever they want to do follows but if they want others it needs to be a little more accessible. as it took me a process of over a year to even learn of arma. not anyone's fault just wma is not highly talked about and dare i say it a "respected" art. don't want to offend but hopefully someone understands that comment.
and on the issue of competitions etc.
gene you make excellent points. but if i wanted fencing i would go do it but i dont want that. to me if your learning to use a sword you use one or as similar one as you can manage. not using a piece of wire and limiting your movements and techniques.
this is a marial art but judo kendo and a giant mix of Asian martial arts thrive as sports the question i pose is why cant we? and still keep our core values. i look at jogo du pao in Portugal that teaches a real European martial art not boiled down yet is accessible as a sport and competition as well. why cant something be done to make wma accessible to a world wide audience. just even do what arma does and have any sister groups agree to a core set of values to make competitions accessible to them. i feel they would give this art somewhere to point at and say look we are a real art.
now this might "water" the art down but if it makes it more accesible well we we have more involved and still have the reall pioneers of this art striving to be as accurate and as knowledgeable as they can. how do people feel on this idea?

Nathan, this conversation is going nowhere and I don't think we are what you are looking for. You seem to think that a "real art" needs sport competition. You seem to think that the more people who get involved in a watered-down sport, the better it is. Sorry, that is not what we are about. I would rather have 50 people in an organization that are committed to the same principals as me than 5000 that are looking for some plastic-and-metal shiny object to boost their ego because their daddy didn't pay enough attention to them when they were children.

A sport requires:

1. A fixed set of rules that can be arbitrated by impartial judges (next to impossible to find even in the best of circumstances, just look at the Olympics for guidance on this one), or electronic scoring equipment (hey, that's what modern fencing has)

2. Standardized equipment to make it fair to all competitors

3. Fixed uniforms

4. Safety equipment out the wazoo so that you can get insurance

5. Limiting the number of moves that can be performed, both for safety's sake and for the above-mentioned impartial judging

6. Judo was developed as a sport and it is a sport. That is not to say it cannot be used for self-defense purposes, but it is a sport. You won't learn leglocks in judo. Is this because they are not effective? Hardly. You won't learn them because it is not part of the sport system and is actually harmful to you to learn them in some cases because you might actually accidentally apply them in competition and get yourself disqualified. Kendo is a sport. The number of techniques are limited and the rules require artificial limitation (like shouting at the appropriate time). Jogo do pau is a sport. Once again, it has self-defense applications, but it is a sport. The list goes on and on.

That is not what we are about.

The whole point of organizations like ARMA is to try and reclaim our European MARTIAL heritage. As in our martial arts and sciences and fighting techniques. We've been doing this for some time now and really don't need people like you preaching to us about the need for "competition." It is because of sport competition (in part, anyway), that we lost what we once had.

Really, please, I don't think we are for you. I am not speaking for ARMA, but I don't appreciate you coming onto our forums and telling us what we "need" to do.

Really, once again, I don't think we are what you are looking for. It might be better for all if you were to just go learn sport fencing or something like it. This is not meant to be an insult; I have a high regard for sport fencers - they are athletes in the truest sense of the word and what they do keeps them in fine shape (which is more than you can say about a great number of people in the Historical Fencing community). But, you seem to want recognition and a rule based structure and that is not us.

Please don't post anymore about how we need competitions. We do just fine, thank you.

[nathan featherstone]

i am sorry i dont want to tell anyone how to do anything but its just some ideas and they are clearly not what people agree with. i just want to get more people involved in this. no sport fencing is not what i want because its too much of a sport im sorry again but just wanted to try think of a way to make this more accesible not tp offend anyone as its very hard to get involved in.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Nathan,

Many Members feel that we should not venture down the path of the "sport" world by setting up artificial rules to facilitate some kind of round-robin tourney.

We believe that by doing so, we are not holding true to what the historical Masters were trying to teach us. We do train and spar each other, as a way to "measure" our own progress and the progress as a group.

You do seem sincere and I am sure that you had no way of understanding how firmly this conviction is weaved into the very base of what makes ARMA, ARMA.

A sure way to send one of us over the edge, is to try and make us conform to some kind of sportified version of what we do for a points-like ranking..lol, so just undersatnd that much of what you were saying unknowingly was like fingernails running a chalkboard.

No need to be worried about it, the more exposure you have to us, the more you will understand what it is we are trying to establish, and how difficult and rewarding that challenge can be.

Thanks for posting your questions, I do suggest spending a bit of time going through the other parts of the website, and thinking about the methods you see represented there, then come back with some questions, cool?- AP

[nathan featherstone]

ok i understand. i agree with keeping this as an art and the HUGE importance of keeping it historically accurate. i would hate to see it fall back into sca or something what it is its perfect just sincerely wish it was more accesable to everyone i dont want it to be changed i hope people do see my take on this. i understand how sensitive an issue this is and im very grateful for people taking the time out to talk to me. its just some form of combat that is easy to get involved in yet still accurate as we can make it is what i would like. even though im sure its probably an impossible aim thanks to all for talkin to me though

[Stacy Clifford]

I think one thing you need to understand is that although we want this art to be ultimately more accessible as well, we feel like first we need to develop more depth of expertise, respectability and public awareness of it. If you look at karate, there are a lot of bad karate instructors out there, but they don't ruin the public perception of karate itself because that art has earned its own measure of respect outside of the individuals who practice it. Ours is slowly getting there, but it's not there yet. A few fools can still do a lot of damage (and there are some out there working hard at it now), so we think it's better for the time being to have a smaller community that's deeper in its dedication to raising the level of the Art than a broader one with lots of casual interest and political and financial agendas. As the depth of the lake increases, the surface area it covers will broaden on its own.

[Martin Lysen]

The way I see it, Nathan, is that we're NOT "all cats". The intent and method of many groups are so qualitatively (I mean "quality" as in content) different that trying to pry them into an inclusive framework would be impossibe.

Some groups, such as the ARMA seem intent on re-creating a martial system of combat skills. Others are more on the line of creating a martial sport, and others still show or stage combat. Some claim to do one thing, but are really achieving something different from their stated intent. These groups all have swords (or swordlike objects) as part of their curriculum, but actually they perform vastly different activities. An umbrella organization trying to please them all would end up pleasing no one, in my own humble opinion.

Not having any "masters" should not stop you from founding a club to study historical fighting skills. Simply accept that you are all students, apply your reason and bodies with sincere intent, keep an open mind and learn together as best as you can. You do not need the stamp of some "official" or "international" organization to conduct valid and valuable studies. The will to experiment and constantly re-examine one's methods and results (one of the positive qualities of the ARMA method, mind you) is far more important than titles and federations.

And yes, I too would rather have 50 good students devoted to a focussed study plan than 5000 people doing something less than excellent in order to please everyone.

[Stacy Clifford]

Not having any "masters" should not stop you from founding a club to study historical fighting skills. Simply accept that you are all students, apply your reason and bodies with sincere intent, keep an open mind and learn together as best as you can. You do not need the stamp of some "official" or "international" organization to conduct valid and valuable studies. The will to experiment and constantly re-examine one's methods and results (one of the positive qualities of the ARMA method, mind you) is far more important than titles and federations.

I have often referred to ARMA as a historical research organization as much as a martial arts club, and have heard "experimental archaeology" used to describe what we do on many occasions. Perhaps the use of such terminology along with a demonstration of the written works of historical masters can help you get around the "no living master" problem in starting a group.

[Jonathan Newhall]

ARMA really is a unique blend in that aspect, Stacy, as are several other prominent historical martial arts groups. It's both a venture into the intellectual and historical as well as the physical, which makes for an interesting (and I think appealing, though perhaps about a century or two too late) proposition.

The scholar swordsman, as it were, would probably be the best representation of an archetype that fits the ARMA member.

[Frederico Martins]

Hi,
I would just like to say that considering jogo do pau as a sport is being ignorant about it, in so many levels.
I don't blame who says that, since there isn't much information about it anyway. But is sad to see that from a group like this, that studies renaissance martial arts.
Jogo do pau is probably the only living connection with medieval sword fight that is still practiced with full combat intent without stylization and sacrifice of tecniques to sportize it in any kind, and you can't say that about many other arts.
I could elaborate but since it is too off topic ill be short and just wanted to clarify that.
Don't want a flame war or anything, but i think it could be interesting for people interested in this matters to have a good idea of what they are talking about.
Cheers!

[steve hick]

Hi,
I would just like to say that considering jogo do pau as a sport is being ignorant about it, in so many levels.
I don't blame who says that, since there isn't much information about it anyway. But is sad to see that from a group like this, that studies renaissance martial arts.
Jogo do pau is probably the only living connection with medieval sword fight that is still practiced with full combat intent without stylization and sacrifice of tecniques to sportize it in any kind, and you can't say that about many other arts.
I could elaborate but since it is too off topic ill be short and just wanted to clarify that.
Don't want a flame war or anything, but i think it could be interesting for people interested in this matters to have a good idea of what they are talking about.
Cheers!

Two points, first there is 17th century evidence for JdP per Rue Simoes dissertation, and prior to that, laws allowing people of notable families to travel with iron bound staves, and, while I don't have hard evidence yet, there are great similarities with the regras of the montante and Jogo do Norte, the original game of the staff from the NW of Portugal.
Steve

[Stacy Clifford]

Hi,
I would just like to say that considering jogo do pau as a sport is being ignorant about it, in so many levels.
I don't blame who says that, since there isn't much information about it anyway. But is sad to see that from a group like this, that studies renaissance martial arts.
Jogo do pau is probably the only living connection with medieval sword fight that is still practiced with full combat intent without stylization and sacrifice of tecniques to sportize it in any kind, and you can't say that about many other arts.
I could elaborate but since it is too off topic ill be short and just wanted to clarify that.
Don't want a flame war or anything, but i think it could be interesting for people interested in this matters to have a good idea of what they are talking about.
Cheers!

Frederico,

I agree that jogo do pau has retained closer ties to the arts we study here than most others that have survived to modern times. See this older thread on the subject:
http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic. ... light=jogo

If you watch the video linked in the first post, the parts where the guy is aiming at his opponent's head and body are quite impressive, but other parts appear to be focused on aiming at the stick to make a nice show, and the sticks look a bit too light and fast. No doubt that's for safety, but really light and fast sticks perform differently and allow you to do things that a heavier, deadlier staff for actual combat would not so quickly perform, so there is definitely a sporting element to the modern practice. Nonetheless, I see techniques in that video that almost perfectly match things I've seen in English and German staff teachings, so there is definitely a good martial component still left in that art. The question you have to ask is why do the modern people who practice it do so? For personal protection or for play? That is going to affect how they practice it and determine how much of a sport it really is. We do have a great deal of respect for jogo do pau and see its obvious potential, but I think most people who practice it today do so for sport, which is why we see it as such.

[Frederico Martins]

Stacy, i agree with you.
the guys in the video don't practice anymore. They practiced with wrong distance and didn't have much combat concern anymore.
And i would say that there are other places in wich people just practice for fun, i could show you more videos of that.
That is wrong in my perspective too, it's very cultural interesting and all, but that i wouldn't want to practice.

But the most respected and active school of jogo do pau still practices it as a combat art, i can show you some videos:
this is an exercise to practice blocks at full speed to the body, without getting out of distance, this video is very well executed and done for a tv show, but we do that with random strikes to make sure the blocks are well executed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBBmokN6Kg4

terrible quality of the video but at the middle they start to "play" and you see it is much different, similar techniques but aimed to the body, and this are strikes that with a wrong angle of blocking, they could break a hand, very easily.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmcYaSHdL5s
they do start slowly, for the demonstraction (that wouldnt happen in a real fight of course).

other than that, you cant practice impact 100% with real weapons like that so we practice 1 week a month with full body protections for full contact and speed combat. This equipment doesn't require to sacrifice any tecnique or add weird rules or even stablish any specific targets, thrusts and everything are valid.

Jogo do pau as is practiced by master Nuno Russo school and as is its origins, is the best way (or the search for) to fight with a staff or baton against one or multiple opponents, being from jogo do pau or other arts. A good jogo do pau fighter isn't afraid of challenges from other arts, and is willing to test it in real combat situations with real weapons.

I know this is very hard to preserve in modern days, but i haven't seen anyone practice staff fighting like it is done in Lisbon today.

It may fall in what you are saying, it may not last more than a few decades, but as it is now, It still is practiced with full combat intent, and yes, in a few decades will not be a master practicing that had defeated people in real combat, i really hope it outlives that and is not lost to a sporty or cultural thing, this is something I'm very afraid off too, and if ever happens it will be lost for me too.

I would dare anyone really interested in combat with similar weapons to visit Lisbon(even in holidays or whatever) and meet nuno russo class, and share their conclusions. I really believe everyone would benefit or bleed.

[Tyrone Artur Budzin]

Frederico,

In this modern age I think it would be much easier to preserve the art of Jogo do Pau with all the available technology out there. The question is if there are those who are willing to commit themselves to put in the effort and work to accomplish this.

[Frederico Martins]

Tyrone, Im not sure what you are talking about... but i don't think i will agree 100% with you. care to spend another post elaboration, if its not too of topic.

[Stacy Clifford]

He's saying you can preserve the art by creating books and videos of how it is done properly while you still have people who know how. We are thankful that the Renaissance masters did so for us, and it was far more difficult to create and publish a book back then than it is now. We are trying to do the same as we rediscover their arts, and if you have a legitimate combat art in Portugal then we would certainly like to see you preserve it.

By the way, you should check out Polearms of Paulus Hector Mair:

http://paladinpress.com/product/886/His ... and_Combat

It has quite a bit of short staff combat in it which looks very similar in length to the sticks you use in jogo do pau. It would be interesting to hear how you think the techniques compare in the future. Staff is an interest of mine, and if I ever make it to Portugal I'd love to look up your school.