Short intoduction and question about the equipment

[Roger Norling]

Very much true. I know lots of people who have had much more injuries (both quantity and severity) than I have due to these "more safe" trainers.

I too agree that you still need to use control primarily. You can even hurt someone with a plastic spoon if you don't.

But, the nylons do allow for harder contact than steel when using little protection. During this year's Swordfish event the only protection allowed in the nylon tournament were mask, throat protection, gloves, a cup and soft knee protection. Although bruises and slight fractures were common, we had no serious injuries caused by the nylons themselves, although the fencing was quite hard.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ryrlen#p/u/3/9bbAdNRFQB4

[Stacy Clifford]

While this is a good suggestion the problem is that no one reads the stickies anyway.

Agreed, we can't get half the people who sign up here to read the Forum Rules even with them posted on both the intro page and a sticky thread titled in all caps to make it more visible. Nonetheless, I may consider it for the other half.

[Stacy Clifford]

I too agree that you still need to use control primarily. You can even hurt someone with a plastic spoon if you don't.

But, the nylons do allow for harder contact than steel when using little protection. During this year's Swordfish event the only protection allowed in the nylon tournament were mask, throat protection, gloves, a cup and soft knee protection. Although bruises and slight fractures were common, we had no serious injuries caused by the nylons themselves, although the fencing was quite hard.

We've been using a similar level of protection with wood and steel (and plastic too) for years and had no worse results than you've had without going light on each other. In my experience the control of the practitioners is a lot more important to safety than the tool being used.

[Ian Mac Pharlaine]

Wow. I'm really digging those einsifer swords. Any idea what they cost for sharps and blunts? How do they compare to Albion, A&A, or Pavel Moc?

[william_cain_iii]

Basically, they're a middle-range option between the 'starter' stuff like the Tinker Blunt and the Hanwei Federschwert, and higher end things like the ones you mention.

Durability is comparable to an Albion or AnA, but handling suffers a little. Still, they have a neat rolled tip so they don't need any additional blunting for safe thrusts.

[Roger Norling]

I too agree that you still need to use control primarily. You can even hurt someone with a plastic spoon if you don't.

But, the nylons do allow for harder contact than steel when using little protection. During this year's Swordfish event the only protection allowed in the nylon tournament were mask, throat protection, gloves, a cup and soft knee protection. Although bruises and slight fractures were common, we had no serious injuries caused by the nylons themselves, although the fencing was quite hard.

We've been using a similar level of protection with wood and steel (and plastic too) for years and had no worse results than you've had without going light on each other. In my experience the control of the practitioners is a lot more important to safety than the tool being used.

I used to think that holding back the strikes in the absolute last part before impact didn't affect the fencing, but I have since changed my mind a bit. Not to mention the thrusts which are very different depending on if you have flex or not.
Of course you still need to use control so that you do not permanently injure your partner and I certainly do agree with you that control is vital, but it very much relates to the tool you use and the equipment the two of you wear. Some require more control than others. A regular "cutting" steel longsword requires more control than "thrusters" or a "feder". Certain wooden wasters require more control than others. Thus far, my experience is that nylons let you fence the most "freely" with little protection. BUT, you can of course hurt someone with a nylon as well... Still, several of the nylonmatches during the Swordfish event were pretty much full contact with little protection, and I wouldn't want to try that with steel or wooden weapons.

So while I agree with you, it is a complex issue with a range of aspects to consider.

[Roger Norling]

Basically, they're a middle-range option between the 'starter' stuff like the Tinker Blunt and the Hanwei Federschwert, and higher end things like the ones you mention.

Durability is comparable to an Albion or AnA, but handling suffers a little. Still, they have a neat rolled tip so they don't need any additional blunting for safe thrusts.

Basically right I think. Looking at my heavier Ensifer feder: the durability is really good, although there was some burring initially on mine. This has settled after a bit of use, hammering and filing though. The handles are generally short, similar to the Albion Meyers, but considering that the blades are very thick at the cross, with about 1cm , they feel surprisingly point heavy. Not like real cutters, but quite different from Meyers or other federschwert. This gives them quite a bit of ompf... The price is less than half of an Albion sparring sword with about 165€, so that is very attractive. And the fact that they appear to be made of fire steel is pretty cool.

The rolled point is good, but putting a rubber blunt on top of it is still good. The blades are quite stiff, clearly stiffer than Albion Meyers and much more than any other "feder" I have held.

The standard feders have a rough finish, which is OK considering the durability and intended use. But, he offers fully polished swords as well:

http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/projects/96362#1
http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/projects/96362#2
http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/projects/96362#3
http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/projects/96362#8

The standard feder comes in two versions: one heavier at 1550gr and a lighter at 1350gr. As stated earlier, mine is the heavier.

http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/projects/96362#4
http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/projects/96362#5
http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/projects/96362#6
http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/projects/96362#9


Sparring messer
http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/projects/96362#7

Fechtschule Gdansk uses Ensifer swords for all sparring, since the swordsmith, Jan Chodkiewicz is a prominent member of that school. He is also a very good fencer.

Considering how hard these guys fence, I would expect the Ensifer sparring swords to hold up as well as Albions, at least. But I only have his heavier feder, so I can't say for sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQb7K90UqVE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr9Mtc4kveA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr5Kwnqiy-k

[Hans Meier]

And the fact that they appear to be made of fire steel is pretty cool.

wuts that? fire steel?

[Roger Norling]

And the fact that they appear to be made of fire steel is pretty cool.

wuts that? fire steel?

Just kidding... I've never seen swords that give off as many sparks during fencing. Quite impressive in a way.

Fire steel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_firesteel

http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/tools/754d/

[Stacy Clifford]

I used to think that holding back the strikes in the absolute last part before impact didn't affect the fencing, but I have since changed my mind a bit. Not to mention the thrusts which are very different depending on if you have flex or not.
Of course you still need to use control so that you do not permanently injure your partner and I certainly do agree with you that control is vital, but it very much relates to the tool you use and the equipment the two of you wear. Some require more control than others. A regular "cutting" steel longsword requires more control than "thrusters" or a "feder". Certain wooden wasters require more control than others. Thus far, my experience is that nylons let you fence the most "freely" with little protection. BUT, you can of course hurt someone with a nylon as well... Still, several of the nylonmatches during the Swordfish event were pretty much full contact with little protection, and I wouldn't want to try that with steel or wooden weapons.

So while I agree with you, it is a complex issue with a range of aspects to consider.

Yeah, I'm not saying the tool is completely irrelevant, you certainly have to adjust your control to whatever you are using, I'm just weighing the relative importance here. I use pretty much the same level of control when thrusting with anything because whether it's wood, steel or plastic, they can all cause significant damage. For cutting I tend to adjust my power based on the weight and speed of the sword in my hand for consistency, which I think is probably how most people actually do it instinctively. We've found that some people (not everybody) were actually getting more injuries, and more severe, with the plastic wasters because they got a false sense of security from the material. If you play too hard with them, you effectively negate any safety advantages they might otherwise have over wood. This is also one reason why we don't use padded swords any more (besides the fact that they make winding & binding almost impossible).

[Anonymous]

I've been looking at the Raven for a while now and in all the demos, the people have all been wearing button down long sleeve shirts.