On Monday I spent two solid hours with my friends practising knife defence in the half light of a car park at pretty much full speed and contact with training knives. I do this regularly. Grabbing the knife is difficult here. Most often I get a left arm parry and a serpentine arm wrap as I hit the knifer in the face and stomp his legs.
Have you done more than this to be in a position to refute me?
In any case, is there a way you can logically dispute my above claim?
Stuart, It sounds a lot like you’re training to defend against the attacks of a skilled opponent, or someone with a sparring mindset. As we’ve discussed above, this sort of attack involves a cautious, often feinting opponent, whose attacks will not necessary mirror the types of blade assaults typically encountered on the street. I do not mean to say you should not train against such attacks, just that they are highly unlikely. I often get “killed” in such exercises, but I’ve done fairly well with a Fiore approach rather than a blocking/parrying approach, although I agree with you that it is really tough to catch someone’s hand when they are flicking it out in snap cuts. It is easier to catch the committed blow.
Also, I have over the years when meeting people who have never trained in knife fighting given them a training knife and told them to attack me. Most of them grab the knife in reverse grip and attack straight down the centreline with repeated stabs. Some adopt hammer grip and try to stab upwards. They do this either by shuffling or by simply running at me. I have never seen anyone outside of select Historical fencing groups who fully understands the utility of the pass and it's relationship to the true and false times
This is exactly the type of attack you can usually expect in street combat. Except you often don't see it coming.
I represented a prison guard once in a lawsuit that sprang from a knife attack on him by an inmate. The inmate, a huge guy of about 250, attacked the CO from behind using the icepick. The initial blow entered the back below the shoulder blade and punctured the left lung, causing it to collapse. Despite this and tremendous pain, the CO turned to confront the inmate, who immediately struck again. The CO raised his arm to deflect the blow with a forearm parry, but the blade went clear through his forearm. He fell down. The inmate bent over him to continue the attack, striking again with the icepick. The CO raised the same arm in defense, and the shank went through the palm of his hand.
At this point, another CO intervened. He was a big guy himself, although not as big as the inmate. The 2d CO took off his belt and began swinging its large buckle at the inmate in an attempt to drive him off the man on the floor. This worked and the two got into a wrestling match. The 2d CO managed to get a grip on the inmate’s arm and disarmed him. At this point more CO’s piled on and subdued the inmate.
Several lessons can be derived from this story.
First, the attack was an ambush. This is consistent with what I have read and been told by people who have been there. It is consistent with my own personal experience, where I was attacked without warning by a knifer.
Second, despite debilitating wounds, the first CO was still able to function and might have been able to defend himself if he had had adequate training. All he knew, however, was country wrestling.
Third, the knifer was disarmed following a grab rather than a parry. The parries were ineffective and resulted only in further injury to the defender. The 2d CO, who disarmed the knifer, was not injured by the blade. He suffered bruises in the struggle, as I recall.
Fourth, the attack was committed and there was no faking involved, and was delivered from the icepick. As I stated earlier, this is one method that inmates train each other with on the yard. I have a video of them doing this in San Quentin, and my informants in the Florida prison system assured me this goes on in our prisons as well.
Against someone trained in a proper prison or "real" Military HTH system such as the applegate method I can see this being a disaster. An "Applegate" knifer moves in with his knife held well back and his left arm and foot forward. This means he can hold back his attack until well after contact if he wishes. As such, you cannot close right in to defend against this. You must force him to attack you by making him commit from out of close distance. If he makes contact with the left arm and manages to keep his knife in reserve then you are going to be stabbed for sure.
This is quite true. I've experimented with various approaches over time, and the Applegate works very well against someone who is not armed with a knife himself.
The Applegate, however, has its own vulnerabilities. That leading arm is one of them. If you are attacked by someone using the Applegate, the best course seems to be to ignore the knife hand and attack the leading arm. Against guys using the Applegate, one good response is to put the guy into waki gatamae (the armpit armbar). I've had guys screaming and tapping out doing that. Interestingly, something like that is illustrated in one of the fecthbuchen, Hans Czyner.
Ikkyo also works well against the Applegate.
Nothing is perfect, and I have often been "killed" by a guy coming at me with the Applegate, though.
All this said, Stuart, I do not mean to disparage your view point or training. Please do not think that is my intention. Having been injured doing what I was taught in MA against a knife attack, I view everyone's experience, except that gained from actual street experience, with a strong element of caution and doubt until it is verified by actual combat.
