Vom Tag;"on" the shoulder or "over"

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Jeff,

You seem to have misread my post. I did mention the fact that we modify our shinai with crossguards and I also mentioned that pommels were a possibility too. You may not have also have noticed that I already acknowledged the fact that each tool has its advantages and disadvantages.

It is good to hear that most of ARMA agrees with you although hardly see it as relevant to the discussion. I intend to give wasters a go on Stacy's and Stew's recommendation, perhaps you should try out shinai and we can compare?
Cheers,
Stu

[Scott Anderson]

Some of the padded ones deal a bigger thump than others, after about 10 months my right thumb is finally to the point it's not hurting every time i move it. now it only hurts on special occasions like when it gets whacked again (not often anymore).

But after 10 years of playing with shinai i would choose wasters and the padded ones over them any day of the week. they are just far to light and whippy and in my experience bounce far more than wasters do.

SPA

[Mike Cartier]

I would like to try a shinai , they do look awfully light though.

[Casper Bradak]

I've played with shinai before. I'd say they're stiff boffers (in the american sense of the word). It'd be good to have a go with them if the opportunity arises, but don't feel you're missing anything if it doesn't.
They're nearly weightless, and of course extremely fast. You have to pay strict attention to your form in free play so you're not simply exploiting the weight and speed to whip in powerless tag whacks.

[Mike Sega]

Stu,
Having trained and sparred for a few years with the first generation MBC swords, I cringe when I hear our swords termed "boffers". The new generation construction has improved them greatly.

I do, however, understand the use of the term. Depending on how well some of our members made their swords, (the Medieval Battling Club of 92-95) some broke down quite quickly and became in effect, "boffers" and as such needed to be remade or destroyed I understand that perhaps that is a generic term for padded weapons in your community, but it is loaded, as you acknowledged.

The issue of the padding lulling some into a false sense of security where someone can actually get a broken bone is a serious concern. Some combination of a padded weapon with the sting of a waster or what you say you can recieve from the shinai would be ideal. How can we create such a weapon? An interesting dilema.
How much pain is to be accepted, or necessary, to learn to fight with a sword? That seems to be the issue at hand.
Any ideas?

[Shane Smith]

Hi Mike,

I'm not sure that I understand your meaning when you say"The issue of the padding lulling some into a false sense of security where someone can actually get a broken bone is a serious concern. Some combination of a padded weapon with the sting of a waster or what you say you can recieve from the shinai would be ideal. How can we create such a weapon? An interesting dilema."

The ARMA padded weapons deliver a pretty good wallop but not nearly the jarring blow a hickory waster delivers when struck with intent(Ask me how I know <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> ). I think the current generation of padded weapon provides just the kind of atributes you are speaking of. Longevity issues remain a problem however.Ours only make it for a few sessions before failure for the most part <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Mike Sega]

Yes, I agree. The new design is superior to the older one.
I meant that it is quite alarming that someone actually recieved a broken bone using the padded weapons. <img src="/forum/images/icons/ooo.gif" alt="" />

My point about the mix between weapons is that it can't necessarily be done. This is why we use wasters, padded weapons, and cutting techniques. We can't have it all in one item and remain safe.

Compared to the shinai, I think we do have a superior sparring weapon. This doesn't mean it can't be improved. Maybe there are some ideas that Stu can add to our weapons design that will prove beneficial.
Some of that depends on how much care is taken in each weapon's manufacture. I have some ideas about ways to better this, but until I can demonstrate that my ideas work, I will say nothing. For if I can't prove it, it is all talk.

Let me say that the new generation swords are very good. They are studier, flatter, and better weighted than what I used before. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[John_Clements]

Hmmm...Well, since I grew up playing with shinais, and went through dozens of them before 1990, I frankly despise the things now. I find they are about as realistic for doing longswords as a lightsaber. They are featherweight and so way too fast, have no mass to handle realistically like steel and have no discernable flat to permit the important changes in pressure and binding you get with steel or even wasters. So, I think they distort techniques significantly. But that's just my experience. (Although, I have noted some Japanese kenjutsu practitioners who rely on bokken feeling similarly about kendo practitioners with their shinai and even the heavier leather covered fukuro shinai). Funny thing though, they are so light you can hit with such speed that they can actually sting incredibly even through clothing.

As to our padded contact-weapons (stiff and heavy as they are) there's definately no great "fear loss" with them. Indeed, one of the very virtues we''ve long pointed out about them is that in sparring intensely you absolutely do not lose the important sense of apprehension and hesitation that I feel occurs with light shinai or boffers and often even during full armored fighting with rattan. We've long described that we consider this an element important in any free-play.

JC

p.s.
Mike Sega, I'm not sure if you've handled the Gen3 contact weapon yet, but we actually have a Gen4 too as of now <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[John_Clements]

I like your thinking, Shawn.
If we were to assume the images in Fiore’s editions, innovative and exceptional examples of Western fencing art as they are, must be taken as literal, then I think we would have to believe that in executing some of these techniques we are supposed to stand flat footed, legs straight, elbows down at our sides, with swords mere inches from one another faces and pressed flat against. Or that,for example in some wrestling and dagger moves we are to stand with our backs straight and arms relaxed, our faces stoic and expressionless.


I don't think anyone is arguing this, so I must assume students understand that (as Dr. Anglo wrote about) there was obvious difficulty among the artists of these works in their limitations in illustrating three-dimensional movement in two dimensions (to match text that might specify several actions to complete a technique or explain a concept). Depth, angle, and shadow in them do not always reflect real-life so much as convey general understanding of position and action which the reader was already familiar with.

Make sense?

[Jeffrey Hull]

Stu,

Although the waster has its disadvantages for sword-training like any training tool which is not itself an actual sword, I still advocate it over the shinai. I think even your modified shinai are at best useful only for tactical training, and not technical. A friend of mine in Kansas uses such modified shinai as you described, with crossguards, and does agree with me. He found that his students wanted to utilise them too much after he introduced them, and had become waster-shy, despite his repeated and demonstrable efforts to show them how waster-sparring can fulfill the fight-book techniques in a superior manner. As you spoke originally with reference to technique, I therefor questioned the fitness of shinai for European fight-book technique -- for even modified shinai are of shapeless/nonexistent edge and have too little mass for such purpose. I therefor agree with John regarding this issue.

Jeffrey

[Guest]

I probably should throw in my two bits. Sorry this post is so late...I don't have as much time to post as I would like, being a full time student and working part time, etc.

I would have to agree here with Jake and Stu that the vom tag over the shoulder is what would be used during a fight, etc, but that the vom tag on the shoulder would be more of a deceptive resting position when you were not fighting that puts you in a position to attack from that is tons faster than drawing the weapon.

Also, I think that it is important to mention that this vom tag on the shoulder would have the flat on the shoulder (not the edge!), and would probably have the right thumb on that flat, under the weapon...It doesn't make much sense to me to do it any other way.

[GaryGrzybek]

I agree that resting the sword on the shoulder could be more of a "prepatory position" before the engagement, however I see no advantage in laying the blade flat on the shoulder with the thumb on the ricasso. It seems like the extra turn in the wrists could cost you some time. I also doubt there's any worry about cutting yourself unless you drag the blade or your not wearing any clothes <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Something to play around with.

[John_Clements]

What also concerns me is that while I can see it used more with an immense 16th century two-hander perhaps, it's too slow and weak for a longsword and too telegraphing with a short sword. I'm still looking for images of it within historical artwork.

JC

[Shane Smith]

Just a note,a zwerchau can be accomplished from the shoulder in a big hurry if the thumb is already on the flat as the blade is cutting horizontally anyhow. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Jake_Norwood]

I would have to agree here with Jake and Stu that the vom tag over the shoulder is what would be used during a fight, etc, but that the vom tag on the shoulder would be more of a deceptive resting position when you were not fighting that puts you in a position to attack from that is tons faster than drawing the weapon.

Re read our posts, Rob.

Jake