the thrust in Longsword combat

[Stacy Clifford]

Bob,

I appreciate your concerns over good scholarship and we all pretty much agree on that, and in this case I would agree that John over-generalized the point a bit. However, knowing how busy he is, if his post was that short then I'm sure that's all he had time to write at the moment. I work with him in Houston, and there's no argument that you don't literally "keep the point on the opponent at all times," otherwise guards like tail and boar's tooth wouldn't exist. I think what he was getting at is that if you are in a forward-pointing guard, then your point should aim at the opponent rather than off to one side or above his head or something like that. The main idea is that the opponent must be threatened in some fashion by either the edge or the point of the sword. If the point is forward and up, it should be aimed at a target. All other guards aiming the point away would be threatening a cut with the edge. It's one of the most consistent principles we teach, so forgive us if we post in haste sometimes, but that's what he meant.

[David Kite]

Jeff,

You'll get all the thrusting you can handle in a couple weeks in Cincinnati when we spar. I'll get you used to it. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

David Kite
ARMA in IN

[Jeffrey Hull]

In Winden from Binden, it is understood through practice that one should try to keep his point aimed at the foe to make one's counter-attack an immediate threat, often to regain the Vor with thrusting, whether by Dupleiren, Mutieren, Abnehmen or otherwise. Maybe not always, but it is a helpful tendency to cultivate. I know that Liechtenauer &amp; Ringeck make this clear "de facto", if not explicitly. JH

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Another cool trick is to let your sword "slip" in the thrust. I would consider it a dynamic application of the trained technique. For example, from left pflug I simply thrust to the face keeping my right hand on the grip, I let loose with the right hand, allowing the grip to slide to the pommel, using my left hand I "push" the pommel out toward my target, while pushing my right arm towards the target as well.

You end up catching the pommel with the right hand stopping the momentum,(hopefully hitting your advesary first of course), it gives you an extra few inches that sometimes makes a huge diffrence. I usually follow thru with this by shielding my face, with my left arm, while pulling back into plug again, or transitioning into another guard. It also works from right pflug, just not as easy for a right-handed fighter.

I know, (from John's book) that the Vikings used this alot during stikes, and My Bro, Ryan started using it to thrust. He always seemed to catch me right in the wrist causing a great deal of pain- FYI Aaron

[John_Clements]

You got it, Stace
I was speaking of engaged / crossed blades in general (where the thrust is appropriate). It's pretty sad that there is a consistent phenomena at work here where, in trying to help practitioners practice, we can offer dozens of articles and thread posts with fully cited sources and well documented evidence that are receive in total silence by certain folk, but say something generalized and the more disingenuous critics among them mess their pants over a fresh opportunity to snipe. Try turning the tables at any time though and you’d be vilified en masse for petty flaming.

Bottom line, thrusts are important and necessary because they work.

[JeffGentry]

Yea you hope David,

I am going to pull a Jake Norwood you'll wonder were all the short edge cut's at range came from not like last time you beat up on me,lol, especialy my Meyer zwerchau to kill your Vom tag you'll go where did that come from, after i hit you twice, ask Joe.
<img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

John

i knew what you meant, ummhmmm got the point, <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
( couldn't resist that was to easy)

[Bob Charron]

John,

You have turned something personal that was academic. You consistently do that. I ask you please do not.

Niether your straw man argument about other articles or calling me a "disengenous critic" is applicable or helpful.

The exception I took was to the blanket statement concerning the teachings of two different masters, neither of whom make the statement that your particular post put in their mouths.

Had you pointed out such an error to me, I would have apologized and corrected it without becoming angry. I was not trying to bait you or make you angry. I was simply trying to correct an incorrect general impression concerning the teachings of the expert I fondly call "my master."

There is no need to make this personal. If you admit it was done in haste and apologize then I accept that freely and without rancor. I will simply assume that, as others have done that for you.

All the best to all of you in your research,

Bob

[Aaron Pynenberg]

ok Bob let's not make a huge deal of this, I think that the great majority of us, knew what John was talking about, if you spend any time training with the texts and studing the material it was pretty obvious.

It was my impression that you were picking a fight. I really don't see a need for anyone to appologize to anyone, Fiore's been dead for a awhile so I think he won't mind either.

Just my thoughts, -Aaron

[Stacy Clifford]

concerning the teachings of the expert I fondly call "my master."

I want to address this little statement real quick. While there is nothing wrong with choosing one master's work to focus your study on, as many of our posters do, it seems inappropriate to me for anyone to refer to them as "my master". This title implies direct transmission of experience and knowledge from one person to another, which is something we do not have. We are studying the works of a master comprising the parts of his knowledge he thought necessary to record, written down and illustrated by a scribe five or six centuries dead, without the ability to further pick the master's brain for insight. All of the knowledge gained from these masters is "at our own risk," so to speak, with only our own senses and experiences to correct our interpretations. There are no living masters who have put the art to its ultimate intended application and lived to teach us what helped them survive. Given that, I think it's more appropriate to refer to them as "my chosen master of study" to give a more accurate impression of our scholarly approach to this subject.

[Casper Bradak]

I just noticed, reading Master Vadi's work today, he specifically mentions the importance of keeping the point directed at the opponents face at least twice in seperate chapters of his book, when in guards or while crossing blades/performing techniques.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Yes, thank you sir. And in similar manner so does Liechtenauer, who tells us to keep the point aimed at the foe's face or breast, especially when moving to counter when working at the sword, and other times as well. JH

[Bob Charron]

If I came on too strong in making a request that false impressions not be given, or accepted, then I apologize for any perceived rudeness, but not for the point I made, which I still stand by.

Aaron,

I simply asked for academic backup for the posted statement and disagreed with it. It then was turned personal and into a big deal by someone else, who directly and undeniably called me names and questioned my character. This is a pattern I have experienced before.

Stacy,

Fiore is my master. He is the teacher I will follow to the finest point I can. The study of his art has led me to studies in Medieval book construction and use, memory systems, martial culture, Medieval academics including geometry, rhetoric, and physics, and to cross-references galore. He is my guiding light, even when dead 600 years. This only speaks to the power of his teaching, and I mislead no one about his being alive or present to teach me. One could construe your post as a snipe, but I will chose not to. I will chose to view it as your expressing a viewpoint strongly (which every single person has a right to), and I will offer my explanation in a civil and kind way. If you choose to think me mad, I can live with that .

Caspar and Jeffrey,

Now you're cookin' ! Vadi does indeed cite the importance of doing this, and while I am not familiar enough with the Merkeverse to quote it, I will trust that Jeffrey is relating it correctly - that is to say the importance of this particular tactic in particular situations. Well done!

Fiore does not, however, in the entirety of his text, make any such admonition to the scholar. Therefore any importance set upon it must come from a very deep understanding of totality of the plays in the treatise. That is something I hope to someday achieve, but that I would not claim at present.

Everyone portraying these texts to fellow scholars and the public should take great care in doing so. We have an obligation to put forward these arts as accurately as possible. The more of the masters' words we can use, and the fewer of our own we employ, the closer we get to portraying and performing the art accurately.

Note here I have done no name-calling, and I remain civil and focused only on the academic points of the question. I am not interested in picking a fight or in ad hominem attacks.

[Joe Fults]

I'm replying to Jeff and David here. Just thought to clarify because the placement of my post in the thread (replied before reading everything) could have led to other interpretations.

Anyway...

Where did that come from?

Sometimes I have problems seeing them. I see Jeff starting the short edge move, and I feel them hit but they are hard for me to track inbound right now. Sometimes its like he is able to momentarily hide the blade so I'm not quite sure whether its going high or low. Of course all of this most likely indicates that I am making a mistake and paying for it accordingly.

However, I'm confident I'll learn to cope effectively before too long.

Jeff on the other hand, sometimes gets nicely taken by unexpected thrusts. Last time we sparred I even managed to get him with one by raising the tip from Alber when he decided to close. I think it surprised both of us when it happened. Maybe he can't see thrusts? <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Joe

[Stacy Clifford]

You are correct, Bob, it wasn't a snipe, just my observation. I believe someone can only be "your" master if you are able to ask them questions and get answers. (If they are dead and you still get answers, you're not defending your head well enough.) If that condition does not apply, then that master is simply your chief source of information and inspiration. I'm not quibbling with your sanity and I didn't imply that you're misleading anyone, I just think we need to be careful how we portray our studies. Tempting as it may be to personalize something you've learned a great deal from, as you have, a bit of detachment helps us appear more serious in a world that expects that in academic endeavors, and helps us keep the bigger picture in perspective. Like it or not (and who does?), our subject still has an image problem, and sometimes little things like this can make as much difference as the bigger ones, so for today I nitpick. We all need to watch our choice of words sometimes.

[JeffGentry]

Joe

I see Jeff starting the short edge move, and I feel them hit but they are hard for me to track inbound right now. Sometimes its like he is able to momentarily hide the blade

You are exactly right what i am doing is this: i am in vom tag and i do a zwerchhau(short edge, keeping my hand's up)i drop the blade down my right side( my left foot is forward)turning the blade over to the short edge and stepping out with my right foot letting the cut flow to full arm extension and throw the shot from somewhat underneath aiming at your arm, wrist, or hand when you are in vom tag.

the zwerchhau is used to break vom tag if i am not mistaken on the master cut's, the position of my body i think obscure's you seeing were i am going to cut and the hand's high deceive's the eye to it coming from somewhat below.

I wasn't able to get the schielhau.org page to load or i would have copy pasted the Meyer text for you, it is one of the fancy thing's Jake was doing at the 1.0, as far as the thrust i see them coming just fine, when i started with the Columbus group i got killed alot thrusting and even now it is somewhat ignored here, try it on Jaron it work's on him too <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />, we just haven't done it alot, i am starting too though.

I got this from Meyer it is an example he used, hope i explained it alright, i can show you.

Jeff