Forging practice swords

[Holden Wesley]

Hello,

I'm in an interesting position in looking into getting into WMA, and thats I'm also an amateur blacksmith.

So it brings to asking the question of what is needed or looked for in the forging of a practice sword (as opposed to a full battle ready type sword), Such as steel type, if the blade needs to be tempered in the same manner and such.

I tried searching, but using the word sword pulls up every thread on the forum, so any help on this would be helpful, or direction to a similar discussion thread.

[robrobertson]

Not to be stuck up, but what exactly are you looking for?

There's a reason that the most used tool is a waster. Read this: http://www.thearma.org/essays/wasters.htm

If you're looking to forge a longsword, don't be discouraged. Don't be stupid either. Set yourself up for success. If you haven't held a true sword, then you're in for a surprise. A well balanced and weighted sword feels alive in your hand. It's almost like it drives itself. I also recommend that you read these articles too:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm
http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/GTA/mo ... mpacts.htm

If you're going to practice cuts, then you want your blade battle ready, not razor sharp. It's much more practical. The way that I see it, is that a weapon that is not battle ready is a very poor return on investment! Even when you make it yourself, unless your time is of no value to you. See, you may already know that. Not knowing you, it's hard to say.

I would recommend you start with 5160. That is what they make leaf springs out of. 1080 can work great too, but if you're real new especially to heat treating, start with 5160.

If you can't make a decent dagger, then get your skills down on that before you ruin the steel on a longsword. (':P')

I'm a little concerned by your use of the word tempered rather than heat treated. By your own admission you're an amateur so you may not know that tempering if only a part of the heat treating process. I'm an okay bladesmith, but nothing near the men who made the tools when lives were on the line. The one man that I'm aware of who came closest to what I see as the ideal to strive for, was lost to us FAR too soon. I speak of the late Paul Champagne. I have few regrets in my life, but they're all doozeys. Among them was to have not met him.

I refer you to the following guidance for examination.
http://www.thearma.org/essays/ASwordStory.html
http://www.thearma.org/essays/How_Were_Swords_Made.htm
http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/PaulC_ ... ew2006.htm
http://www.thearma.org/Paul_Champagne.htm

By the way, I was once given an odd bit of advice from a professional blacksmith from Oregon. You may find it useful. We were making a small axe head at in the Ft. Vancouver blacksmith shop in Washington state. Few visitors came through that day so we got to work and talk without interuption. He told me that whenever he made anything, he always made them in lots. Before he would fire up his forge, he would practice by shaping clay to his stock size and then hammering it into shape. He didn't need to wait between heats. If he made a mistake he just re-shaped the clay and could quickly start over. Once he had it down as efficiently as possible he would record it in his log book, step by step. When he needed to make an item again, he could open up to the pattern, practice quickly on his clay and saved much time and fuel over the course of the year.

Just some thoughts that may help you.

There's much to this! There's also much BS out there. My favorite stuporstition is the one about quenching blades in cadavers. I've even heard that one repeated by folks who I thought should know better. Oh, well.

I love practicality! The reason that I love the ARMA method is because of the basic understanding that it HAS to work. I'm personally WAY too busy to putter with things that aren't functional.

Jump in. The water's fine.

Rob

Hello,

I'm in an interesting position in looking into getting into WMA, and thats I'm also an amateur blacksmith.

So it brings to asking the question of what is needed or looked for in the forging of a practice sword (as opposed to a full battle ready type sword), Such as steel type, if the blade needs to be tempered in the same manner and such.

I tried searching, but using the word sword pulls up every thread on the forum, so any help on this would be helpful, or direction to a similar discussion thread.

[Holden Wesley]

Well, originally I wanted a sword, and so rather than save or go buy a cheap sword, I figured I'd take up blacksmithing (or bladesmithing if you want to be specific) as a hobby, and make it myself. That should tell you about my personality (Same thing occured for both making Chainmail and Brewing Mead)(Actually, I make my own charcoal as well so really...)

Way I see it, is there are 3 types of practice swords, Blunt Steel, Plastic and the wooden waster.

Wooden seems the most practical, but price seems incredibly high for something that from the sound of it, is going to last a year or so before needing to be replacement. Plus, none of them I've seen are exactly what I would like, as I'm more looking to learn Viking Era sword and shield combat (If I can ever find a swage for making a shield boss). I could probably make a wooden waster, but not sure where to start, mainly wood selection...though i suppose any wood for bow making would also probably work in this application...

Thus why I asked about steel, as I at least have some knowledge where to start.

[Stacy Clifford]

Well-made wooden wasters like those from New Stirling Arms will usually last several years if treated well, even under the considerable abuse we put them through, unless you just happen to get unlucky and get a flawed piece of wood. Crosses and guards do tend to break more frequently, but the blades can last a long time. Hickory is what most waster makers use these days, but your observation on bow woods is a good one (Native Americans sometimes used hickory for bows). The wood should be hard but resilient, not brittle.

[Andrew F Ulrich]

Holden, I really applaud your aspirations. You seem like a pretty handy kind of guy. I wanted to also point out this passage from albion-swords.com:

To have a sword that both looks exactly like a sharp historical sword, and have it be safe in practice combat, is frankly not possible -- a sparring sword needs to be designed along completely different lines from the ground up. As a result, to make the sword safe to use in regular practice, the outline of the sword must be different. Side by side, a practice sword will have a different silhouette than its sharp counterpart, but it will have the same handling characteristics

Their Maestro Line swords are definitely the best practice swords here in the States as far as I know, so if you can get a good look at one of them, you might learn something that way. So here's an idea:

Each of the swords on their website has a line-drawing that is to scale, along with specifications such as length, blade length, blade width, etc.
So if you blew up that picture (in a program like Gimp or Photoshop) to life size, then printed it out, you'd have a nice reference to work with.

Just an idea, hope it helps. Good luck, and be sure to post your progress!

[robrobertson]

I agree! Such character is to be applauded, espaecially these days!

Make your own waster! I have a larger than average family, when I first met ARMA I had 8 still at home. Though there are now only 5 kids at home (sure is quiet now) I wasn't thrilled to fork out $800-$1,000 for wasters! So, I made them. Nothing award winning, but they were functional and balanced.

I made the mistake of using red oak from home depot at first. they were adequate and cheap, but they didn't last long especially after taking them to a seminar by Jake. The Hickory wasters trashed them. they could handle oak to oak, but not oak to hickory. Sort of like bronze to iron, they were just not in the same league.

I used the directions that my friend in Utah, James Knowles wrote up. If you give me your e-mail, I'd be happy to forward it to you.

Also, keep on forging! It sounds like I could get along with you.

Rob

Holden, I really applaud your aspirations. You seem like a pretty handy kind of guy. I wanted to also point out this passage from albion-swords.com:

To have a sword that both looks exactly like a sharp historical sword, and have it be safe in practice combat, is frankly not possible -- a sparring sword needs to be designed along completely different lines from the ground up. As a result, to make the sword safe to use in regular practice, the outline of the sword must be different. Side by side, a practice sword will have a different silhouette than its sharp counterpart, but it will have the same handling characteristics

Their Maestro Line swords are definitely the best practice swords here in the States as far as I know, so if you can get a good look at one of them, you might learn something that way. So here's an idea:

Each of the swords on their website has a line-drawing that is to scale, along with specifications such as length, blade length, blade width, etc.
So if you blew up that picture (in a program like Gimp or Photoshop) to life size, then printed it out, you'd have a nice reference to work with.

Just an idea, hope it helps. Good luck, and be sure to post your progress!

[Mike Sheffield]

Hey look another smith! Have you asked any of these questions over at a bladesmithing forum? I've noticed that it is important to ask the swordsman and smiths with experience. Compile all ideas and see what comes out. Happy hammering, and may all your worries be burned in the fire!

BTW Would you mind sending me a picture of your charcoal retort.