Novelist here. Need some pointers, please.

[Eli Freysson]

Hi there. I'm an aspiring fantasy novelist (currently in serious talks with a publisher), and this seems like a good place to ask questions about combat in a pre-industrial world.
I'm currently wondering about training times, because I hate it in novels or movies when a character masters a skill in no time because they are So Very Extra Special. Let a character work for their skills, I say.

Right now I'm thinking about:

*A class of warriors that are trained from early childhood in swordplay, knife fighting, hand-to-hand, stealth and thrown weapons. They're basically commandos crossed with the Hollywood image of ninja.
What's a realistic time for their skill set to be complete enough to be sent on missions?

*A teenager that has had some moderate training with a bastard sword, and who then receives intense personal training from a supremely skilled teacher, day in and day out for months.
At what point can I safely consider her a dangerous fighter who can take on competent warriors and win?

*A sort of super soldier program, where teenagers are given superhuman strength and trained with a huge claymore-like sword as well as a smaller arming sword for backup. How long does it take to learn to wield something like that effectively? I'm thinking of having them join the program at fourteen years old.

*And okay, this doesn't really involve training, but what's an effective deadly range for a short bow and how fast can one be fired?

Thanks for taking the time!

[Stacy Clifford]

If someone trains day in and day out with a good teacher (in any weapon), it's reasonable to expect them to be a competent fighter after a few months, but certainly not a great one. Think of boot camp in the army, that's essentially the teacher's job starting out. To really become exceptional would probably take at least a couple of years of very dedicated training. Something important to note is that learning to fight with just one person, no matter how skilled, is not adequate preparation for facing the unpredictability of different body types, speeds, sizes, and levels of skill found in real world opponents. You need to train with other people besides the teacher to learn to adapt to these factors on the fly in a real fight. Nothing can prepare you for that except the experience of doing it. Otherwise your sheltered fighter could be caught off guard by a large man's quickness or a small one's wrestling ability or some other nasty surprise.

Also, since you want your characters to earn their stripes (which we would all love to see more of), I highly recommend reading this article as well:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/fit/RennFit.htm

Nobody gets that rock hard Hollywood body without working for it, and the fight masters were very aware of the importance of daily exercise.

Also, please follow our forum rules and edit your profile name to include your last name.

[nathan featherstone]

i think stacy covered the training well there as for weapons you will need to be more specific and research them as much as you can. different weapons mean different technology was available.
as for bows thats where i can help most now short bow is very very very vague you have hundreds of types to choose from. all i will say is if your looking at something like a hunnic short bow i have seen 12 arrows shot in 20 seconds with one. thats due to a special way of gripping the arrows mind you. as for effective range depends on the draw and arrow type the furthest i have heard of a short Turkish bow shoot was 800 yards likely less than this and by no means accurate. but this was with hollow bone arrows. it all depends on the bow the target the archer and the arrow being used. bows are hugely complex.
click on the vid and go to two minutes in you will see a good example of speed shooting with a short bow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yorHswh ... re=related
also i beg you dont give the character a quiver they are no use on a battlefield or for running with as the arrows fall out give them and arrow bag its something that drives me nuts in novels lol. hope that helps any more questions i will be glad to help.

[Andrew F Ulrich]

I would recommend reading Vegeteus' chapters on 'The Selection of Recruits", "The Proper Age for Recruits", "Their Size", "Signs of Desirable Qualities", and "The Military Mark". In fact, it might not be a bad idea to read the entire Book I. You can find a copy of this very important treatise here:
http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~madsb/home/war/vegetius/

As for the first class, I would also venture that the type of mission would certainly be a big factor in judging at what point they could be considered ready. Relaying of messages, 'sniping' from a distance, poisoning some food, etc. might be afforded to a younger person than someone who needed to, say attack someone directly or infiltrate a facility. Also, you might consider that, well at least as I understand it, knights during the renaissance were trained from very young as well, and they were not considered knights until eighteen or twenty or so. You might also be interested in hearing about Salvatore Fabris' attempt at assassinating a Duke, and consider that such a man as Fabris was selected for this task:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/Fabris_the_Assassin.htm

[Eli Freysson]

If someone trains day in and day out with a good teacher (in any weapon), it's reasonable to expect them to be a competent fighter after a few months, but certainly not a great one. Think of boot camp in the army, that's essentially the teacher's job starting out. To really become exceptional would probably take at least a couple of years of very dedicated training. Something important to note is that learning to fight with just one person, no matter how skilled, is not adequate preparation for facing the unpredictability of different body types, speeds, sizes, and levels of skill found in real world opponents. You need to train with other people besides the teacher to learn to adapt to these factors on the fly in a real fight.

. . .

Also, since you want your characters to earn their stripes (which we would all love to see more of), I highly recommend reading this article as well:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/fit/RennFit.htm

Hmm. Thanks for the note on fighting people with different body types. I'll definitely keep that in mind and work that in. And thanks for pointing me to that fitness essay.

as for bows thats where i can help most now short bow is very very very vague you have hundreds of types to choose from. all i will say is if your looking at something like a hunnic short bow i have seen 12 arrows shot in 20 seconds with one. thats due to a special way of gripping the arrows mind you. as for effective range depends on the draw and arrow type the furthest i have heard of a short Turkish bow shoot was 800 yards likely less than this and by no means accurate. but this was with hollow bone arrows. it all depends on the bow the target the archer and the arrow being used. bows are hugely complex.
click on the vid and go to two minutes in you will see a good example of speed shooting with a short bow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yorHswh ... re=related

Yes, I know that "short bow" is a very vague description, but I simply meant that my world doesn't have an English longbow equivalent yet. I was actually thinking of a weapon similar to the one used in that video (what amazing skill!). Hunnic bow, eh? I might just go with that as a template for bows in my stories.
Could you tell me the basics of maintaining a compound bow? I say basics because I don't spend much time on technical details. I just want to drop a line here and there to show that the characters know what they're doing.


But what about the man-sized greatswords? Did it take any longer to learn to wield swords that big effectively? And how did a warrior carry one around when not fighting?

[Sal Bertucci]

If you had the basics of longsword, dedicating time to the 2handers would show some differences, but it would depend. Are we talking battle field use or more individual use?

As for carrying it around: you put a Sheath-ish thingy on the blade to avoid poking anyone accidentally, and you mainly carried it on the shoulder.

[Eli Freysson]

If you had the basics of longsword, dedicating time to the 2handers would show some differences, but it would depend. Are we talking battle field use or more individual use?

Both, really. They mostly fight on their own, but I also want them to be able to stand in a battle formation without decapitating their comrades.

[Stacy Clifford]

A true two-hander is definitely not a weapon you just carry everywhere you go, it would just be in the way when you try to maneuver through a crowd or sit down. As Sal said, historical art indicates they were mainly carried over the shoulder like this:



The biggest swords were mainly intended for mowing their way through pike squares, but you know there was always somebody who had to show off in single combat with one, it's human nature. Usage would have been similar to a restricted version of longsword (due to size & lower maneuverability) with some polearm techniques added in, with maybe a handful of unique moves of its own. A fighter who knows longsword and staff/polearms well could become competent with a two-hander fairly easily.

[Eli Freysson]

A fighter who knows longsword and staff/polearms well could become competent with a two-hander fairly easily.

But I'm thinking of a program that trains raw recruits. I need a realistic time frame for how long it would take to turn them into skilled warriors. Two years? Four years?

[Sal Bertucci]

I'm just talking out my ear here, but if the only thing they're doing is training (Which is fairly unlikely) They should be able to be combat competent warrior with all the weapons that you named in three years. They'd still be inexperienced in real combat, but they'd have the needed skills.

[Stacy Clifford]

If their full time "day job" is training for combat, then there's no reason they should be limited to training in only one weapon, they have plenty of time to study and practice many things that they can become competent at in 2-3 years. If they apply special focus to one then they may become expert in that amount of time, but they would still be learning things like wrestling, dagger, staff, etc. alongside their preferred weapon. It's a lot easier to fight against other weapons if you first know how to fight with them, so cross-training is important even if you don't ever plan to use those other weapons much personally. The masters we study believed very strongly in producing well-rounded fighters who could face any kind of threat.

[Eli Freysson]

If their full time "day job" is training for combat, then there's no reason they should be limited to training in only one weapon, they have plenty of time to study and practice many things that they can become competent at in 2-3 years.

Okay. So I could have the program itself be 3-4 years long to gain skill with weapons, and then they'd fight alongside the veterans for a while to gain real combat experience.

If they apply special focus to one then they may become expert in that amount of time, but they would still be learning things like wrestling, dagger, staff, etc. alongside their preferred weapon. It's a lot easier to fight against other weapons if you first know how to fight with them, so cross-training is important even if you don't ever plan to use those other weapons much personally.

This is an excellent point.

[nathan featherstone]

yes keep wrestling in mind its the basis of all combat when your disarmed or even in close the you have to wrestle or at least use a knife so keep that in mind. and wrestling is not who is biggest its mainly skill but size does help. as for maintaining compound bows and arrows they are both VERY sensitive to moisture as combound bows are wood sinew and horn they are glued together while the glue is water proof the components arent. also keep the arrows dry straight and keep the fletching (feathers) from damage if they are damaged your shot is screwed. any more questions on archery do ask im glad to help. also bows such as these are handy as they are short and hugely powerful. effective range for accuracy is about 100 yards for most bows. i could go on all day i found a vid on turkish archery u might like where the archer keeps his sword in his shooting hand while firing. as they use thumb rings to shoot not their fingers.
as i said any info you want please ask i like to help with this stuff.

[Nicholas Moore]

I'd like to point out that long and short bow technology is not exclusive. Where and when they were used had more to do with what material that was available than which came first. So the question becomes is the right type of wood available? horn? glue?does it require a professional bower to produce (most short bows) or can a peasant make one with local material in a matter of hours (like most long bows)? This is a bit of an oversimplification but I think these might be questions to ask.

[nathan featherstone]

these are excellent points made by Nicholas. even if making an entirely wooden short bow it can only be so short and is still of a reasonably large size.